US politics circa 2011

[discreetgent]

WTO protests: That was all over the MSM - that is assuming you consider the NYT, CNN, and even FOX to be MSM.

Violence on either side is just wrong, but if we are going down this path then I posit that when there is such violence it tends to come far more from those espousing extreme conservative views than extreme liberal ones. I mean no one has ever shot a doctor who chose not to perform abortions. Unabomber is the one real exception I can think of.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by WTF

So you think that eight years of tacking to the right should be followed by no more than two years of tacking to the left!

Originally Posted by bigtex

Pay it no mind! I B Hankering seems to have conveniently lost sight of the fact that the "Right" has been in control of the White House for 20 of the past 30 years.

I didn’t forget, nor am ignoring the fact that since Truman, Republicans have held the presidency more often than the Democrats. Yet, between FDR and Truman, the Democrats controlled the presidency for twenty straight years; throughout which, the ship of state tacked hard to the left. During that same time, the Democrats dominated Congress for eighteen of those years; much of the time with a super majority—the Republicans have never enjoyed that much control. We are still dealing with the repercussions of that little factoid unto today.

Furthermore, you are wrong to equate “control” with “direction.” If you automatically equate Republican with “reactionary” or “right,” you are forgetting that it was Republican President Lincoln’s social agenda that ultimately ended slavery in the U.S., and it was Republican controlled sessions of Congress that proposed Progressive Amendments such as the 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th and 19th. Split Congresses (one house Republican and the other Democrat) proposed the 17th and 18th Amendments. The 24th and 26th Amendments were the only two Progressive Amendments proposed during Congressional sessions dominated by Democrats. And the 26th Amendment was preceded by Nixon signing legislation that enfranchised 18 year olds, but this was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan did steer the country to the right. However, what “right of center” legacy did W leave us? I cannot think of any legacy left to us by W except, perhaps, for creating the Office of Homeland Security—which isn’t necessarily a tool used exclusively by the right; for, as I see it, Obama and Napolitano have wholeheartedly adopted it, and they are still honing and using it to support their agenda. Yet paying for SS, Medicare and Medicaid is still an issue, and now funding ObamaCare beyond ten years only promises to exacerbate the funding problem.

I am serious when I suggest that the 17th Amendment needs to be repealed, at least for thirty or forty years, so that some semblance of balance between the states and the central government is re-established. Last year, if Senators had been accountable to their respective state legislatures, that PoS legislation would not have passed through Congress.

Originally Posted by ..

LOL! Well even /me finds this still acceptable, I'm for radical free speech. (and I'm aware that this can lead to shouting competition.)

Originally Posted by ..

What I do not find acceptable are anti-democratic acts to silence free speech.

+1

[gnadfly]

Originally Posted by Iaintliein

So, Obama admonishing his supporters to "bring a gun" could not have inspired this nutcase, who's been described by his classmate as "left wing" and "quiet liberal"?

I think one thing we can all agree on is that overt or implied calls for violence should not be part of the public discourse on politics. And that we all feel deep sadness for the victims and their families.

Good to see your political posts again lien. Yep, from what I've seen on this guy, he's a nutcase. Blaming Palin on this is akin to blaming Jody Foster for Reagan's assassination attempt. The question should be how'd this guy have access to a handgun.

Yes, altcomedy, I've prayed for the congresswoman, the 9 yo child and her family, Judge Rolle and the other victims. I await whatever derision you have for me.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Yes, altcomedy, I've prayed for the congresswoman, the 9 yo child and her family, Judge Rolle and the other victims. I await whatever derision you have for me.

Did your prayers keep them from getting shot?

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

However, what “right of center” legacy did W leave us? I cannot think of any legacy left to us by W

You are correct, nation building is a liberal agenda but the right has co-opted for their welfare-ish agenda, Defense build-up. Hey let's not forget his Px drug care for seniors. What is it with these liberal Texans Presidents? War and Welfare is what they do!

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Yet paying for SS, Medicare and Medicaid is still an issue, and now funding ObamaCare beyond ten years only promises to exacerbate the funding problem.

Shock of shocks you fail to mention Defense spending in the funding equation

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by WTF

Shock of shocks you fail to mention Defense spending in the funding equation

The business of war is a difficult one, and military defense is one thing the private market does not do well. Kings began to rely on standing armies following the Hundred Years' War, because many a battle was lost when captains – mercenaries who were offered better wages by an opponent – switched sides at a crucial moment during the battle. Mercenaries also could not be relied upon to keep peace. Peace for a mercenary meant unemployment, and during times of peace, mercenaries often turned on their employers and started a new conflict. After Shay's Rebellion, 1786 to 1787, the Founding Fathers realized that an army was a necessary evil, and they called for a little meeting to be held in Philadelphia.

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Blaming Palin on this is akin to blaming Jody Foster for Reagan's assassination attempt.

I do not recall having read on these pages of anyone who "blamed Palin for this."

What Governor Quitter has been accused of is questionable judgment as well as using a poor choice of words. She seems to be quite adept at both.

Fortunately for the Governor who resigned her elected position in midterm, questionable judgment and using a poor choice of words is NOT against the law!

[charlestudor2005]

IBH--I respect your knowledge of history, but we disagree on where the ship of state is at the current time. In your vernacular, IMHO, it needs to tack to the left (but I use a different metaphor, see below).

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Let me begin by stating that I consider this incident in Arizona a tragedy, and I in no manner condone this type of behavior.

Yet, as innocuous as this might seem, this statement, which I quoted above, is an example of inflammatory rhetoric. I hear this type of rhetoric all of the time, and I find it irritating. To claim that one group is “normal,” you have, by inference, called the other group “abnormal.” To suggest that anyone who disagrees with you is “abnormal” is to suggest, by extension, that that person needs psychiatric treatment or incarceration; that is condescending and disrespectful. It should not be surprising then, that those who are marginalized as “abnormal” respond with equally negative and vitriolic rhetoric.

BTW, I believe government has to be managed like a sailing vessel tacking into the wind. To move forward, such a vessel must follow a bearing to either the left or right of its intended destination for a certain distance, and then change its sails and tack in the opposite direction for the same distance. Presently, I feel the U.S. government has tacked too far to the left (port); therefore, it must soon start tacking to the right (starboard) to avoid wrecking on the rocks of Socialism.

I think this metaphor is somewhat flawed since it has the ship of state headed into the wind at all times. We all know that sometimes the ship goes into the wind, sometimes it sails with the wind.

I prefer a pendulum metaphor. The pendulum swings to the left and to the right, back and forth. And if you have ever visited the one at the Smithsonian in DC (where the tip is in the sand), you can see that the pendulum gradually goes around a 360 degree circle. I believe this metaphor to reflect what happens in politics more naturally than your "tacking" one (especially now that only the wealthy can own sailboats).

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

I didn’t forget, nor am ignoring the fact that since Truman, Republicans have held the presidency more often than the Democrats. Yet, between FDR and Truman, the Democrats controlled the presidency for twenty straight years; throughout which, the ship of state tacked hard to the left. During that same time, the Democrats dominated Congress for eighteen of those years; much of the time with a super majority—the Republicans have never enjoyed that much control. We are still dealing with the repercussions of that little factoid unto today.

Furthermore, you are wrong to equate “control” with “direction.” If you automatically equate Republican with “reactionary” or “right,” you are forgetting that it was Republican President Lincoln’s social agenda that ultimately ended slavery in the U.S., and it was Republican controlled sessions of Congress that proposed Progressive Amendments such as the 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th and 19th. Split Congresses (one house Republican and the other Democrat) proposed the 17th and 18th Amendments. The 24th and 26th Amendments were the only two Progressive Amendments proposed during Congressional sessions dominated by Democrats. And the 26th Amendment was preceded by Nixon signing legislation that enfranchised 18 year olds, but this was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan did steer the country to the right. However, what “right of center” legacy did W leave us? I cannot think of any legacy left to us by W except, perhaps, for creating the Office of Homeland Security—which isn’t necessarily a tool used exclusively by the right; for, as I see it, Obama and Napolitano have wholeheartedly adopted it, and they are still honing and using it to support their agenda. Yet paying for SS, Medicare and Medicaid is still an issue, and now funding ObamaCare beyond ten years only promises to exacerbate the funding problem.

I am serious when I suggest that the 17th Amendment needs to be repealed, at least for thirty or forty years, so that some semblance of balance between the states and the central government is re-established. Last year, if Senators had been accountable to their respective state legislatures, that PoS legislation would not have passed through Congress.

I do think, emotionally, however, that Americans (even you, IBH) are somewhat more trustful of conservatives/Republicans. For years, conservatives/Republicans have equated Democrats or "bleeding heart" liberals to socialists (note JB's epithets about Obama) or Communists as a way of persuading the American public to distrust Democrats. I gotta ask, Why would the most powerful person in the world (a Democrat President) "sell out" the country to a foreign nation? It's ridiculous. He'd be usurping his own power. In any event, if you throw enough mud, some sticks. And since this country has for decades been scared of the "red menace," any accusation that a Democrat is a "socialist" strikes fear in the hearts of Americans, whether or not the accusation is true. And the accusations are made (to coin a phrase) liberally by conservatives. Because of this kind of distrust, no Democrat could ever have gone to China, whereas, Nixon was able to.

So, even though your argument appears well founded, it is not accurate.

And I disagree that the healthcare legislation is any kind of POS. Conservatives loudly tout that "the People" hate healthcare, but decline to say just exactly "who" "the People" are. NPR reported the other day that in breaking down this argument, Republicans generally dislike healthcare by about 80-90%. But the whole population of the country are about split 50-50. In addition, portions of the healthcare law are extremely well liked by the population as a whole (no pre-existing conditions; coverage of kids to age 26; coverage for those who had no coverage [there are others that I can't remember]). In the final analysis, this is the best country in the world. I can't believe in this, the best country in the world, we can't provide for health care like most other nations do. We are at least as good and probably better.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by bigtex

I do not recall reading that anyone "blamed Palin for this." What Palin has been accused of is questionable judgment as well as using a poor choice of words. She seems to be quite adept at both. Fortunately for her, neither is against the law!

When the Congresswoman's father was interviewed shortly after the shooting, he was asked if she had any enemies. He responded, "The Tea Party."

[..]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

When the Congresswoman's father was interviewed shortly after the shooting, he was asked if she had any enemies. He responded, "The Tea Party."

That's true that he said that, but that's missleading, The Arizona Tea Party is quite oddball and more radical than the Tea Party in other states.

[Guest040616]

In a strange twist of fate, a mere few months after Governor Quitter, literally and figuratively, placed Congresswoman Giffords's Congressional seat in the "crosshairs," Palin's very own actions have now placed her squarely in the "crosshairs" of intense public scrutiny!

How ironic!

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sarah...ry?id=12576437

[pjorourke]

Yeah, nothing like an objective impartial press.

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Yeah, nothing like an objective impartial press.

This is the first time I can recall a conservative poster forced to play the "objective impartial press" card!

[pjorourke]

We gave up on the MSM many years ago. They are just shills for the left. Thats why the left gets so bent by Fox -- it fucks up their monopoly.

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

We gave up on the MSM many years ago. They are just shills for the left. Thats why the left gets so bent by Fox -- it fucks up their monopoly.

Yeah, you're right. Rupert Murdoch and friends love the left!

[pjorourke]

One against many