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royamcr · 02-26-2011, 10:57 PM

http://www.duicenter.com/lectures/exception01.html

ampad · 02-27-2011, 12:41 AM

tl;dr What's the gist of this article?

royamcr · 02-27-2011, 01:17 AM

Gist is DUI laws are fucked up.

FireSerpent · 02-27-2011, 09:47 AM

Very interesing read!

Surprisingly, I didn't know any of that!

FireSerpent · 02-27-2011, 09:48 AM

Well... I did... but not in the given context.

swarmyone · 02-27-2011, 10:39 AM

Your opening up a huge can of worms here. Very passionate arguements on both sides and you will NEVER get the two sides to agree. Bottom line is you can't get caught if you don't drink and drive. EVER!

royamcr · 02-27-2011, 11:58 AM

The biggest things for me is the roadblocks which is illegal search but allowed with DUI. I'm fine with an officer observing erratic driving then pulling over. Then all the laws are written to ignore pure science. Also the officer is allowed to suspend license without due process. Basically guilty until proven innocent. Basic constitutional rights are being violated.

swarmyone · 02-27-2011, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by royamcr

The biggest things for me is the roadblocks which is illegal search but allowed with DUI. I'm fine with an officer observing erratic driving then pulling over. Then all the laws are written to ignore pure science. Also the officer is allowed to suspend license without due process. Basically guilty until proven innocent. Basic constitutional rights are being violated.

Good to know royamcr's opinion, however in order for one to determine whether or not "basic constitutional rights are being violated"...I tend to rely on a more authoritative body. Namely the United States Supreme Court which ruled that DUI checkpoints are NOT unconstitutional.

Philhelm · 03-02-2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmyone

Good to know royamcr's opinion, however in order for one to determine whether or not "basic constitutional rights are being violated"...I tend to rely on a more authoritative body. Namely the United States Supreme Court which ruled that DUI checkpoints are NOT unconstitutional.

That's nothing more than an appeal to authority. So, the opinions of nine people, which carry weight accross the entire nation of over 300 million people, should be unquestioned? The S(R)OTUS often has 5-4 rulings, which should be enough to show that there is something fundamentally wrong. Are our laws that hard to interpret? Surely if they were all learned, legal scholars, they would more often reach the same, or similar conclusions, at least as far as legal interpretations go. At the very least, are laws are far too undefined, or we are at the mercy of political bias.

This is the same establishment that can't agree on terms such as interstate commerce, necessary and proper, general welfare, Congress shall make no law, etc. DUI laws, and the War on Drugs have done much to shred the Fourth Amendment. I'm not advocating that people should drive drunk or snort mountains of cocaine; however, a citizen driving on the road is not reasonable suspicion to search his person and effects (I speak, of course, of DUI checkpoints). Hysteria has led to a massive violation of individual liberty.

KCJoe · 03-02-2011, 04:04 PM

My opinion is that the toughing of the DUI laws are primarily driven by a quest for more revenue by attorneys, municipalities, and insurance companies. Personally, I won’t ever drive then drive, so I have no problems with the laws applying to me, but there were times in my youth where I was too drunk to walk so I had to drive. There are legal ways to drive drunk, get stopped and not get arrested. Just ask Governor Jane Brewer of Arizona.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/electi...rewer1027.html

MsElena · 03-02-2011, 04:12 PM

KCJoe,

Getting tough on DUI's might have something to do with all the deaths, accidents, people having 3/4/5 DUI's on their records, etc. Here in Omaha, I know it has to do with all the above. We had 6 people die within two weeks due to drunk drivers back in the fall. Some idiot decided to drive while he was drunk, turned the corner and hit a cop car. Luckily the cop saw him coming and jumped out of the way. He had another car pulled over at the time. Another guy last weekend lost control of his car and it ended up on its side, after it rolled a time or two. He had 3 DUI's on his record and he was 3x the legal limit at the time.

Like myself, people just might be fed up with losing a loved one due to a drunk driver. I have no tolerance for people who decide to get behind the wheel after they've been drinking. If drinking is that important to someone, ask a friend to drive you or get a taxi.

KCJoe · 03-02-2011, 04:28 PM

Getting tough on DUI's don't seem to have any effect on those drivers who cause the accidents and/or kill people. They still seem to get behind the wheel of a car and cause problems in spite of the laws. What the laws have done is to make criminals out of people who hold jobs, contribute to society and probably drive better than any teenager, especially those who talk and text while driving.

Philhelm · 03-02-2011, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsElena

KCJoe,

Getting tough on DUI's might have something to do with all the deaths, accidents, people having 3/4/5 DUI's on their records, etc. Here in Omaha, I know it has to do with all the above. We had 6 people die within two weeks due to drunk drivers back in the fall. Some idiot decided to drive while he was drunk, turned the corner and hit a cop car. Luckily the cop saw him coming and jumped out of the way. He had another car pulled over at the time. Another guy last weekend lost control of his car and it ended up on its side, after it rolled a time or two. He had 3 DUI's on his record and he was 3x the legal limit at the time.

Like myself, people just might be fed up with losing a loved one due to a drunk driver. I have no tolerance for people who decide to get behind the wheel after they've been drinking. If drinking is that important to someone, ask a friend to drive you or get a taxi.

The problem is that you can make as many laws as you can, and it won't really deter anything. I'm reminded of a conversation I once had with a friend. She had mentioned offhand how she had received a ticket in the mail for running a red light, and had been caught by a camera. I went into a tirade about how I oppose the surveillance state, yada, yada, yada. In any case, her argument was that having the cameras deterred people from running red lights, thus making the streets safer. Of course, my answer was that apparently that wasn't the case, or she wouldn't have run the red light. She had nothing to say to that.

With DUI laws, I believe they go above and beyond what is necessary and proper (I would get into how we already have tort laws on the books, and about how we can streamline our legal system, but I'll save that one). First, they serve as a form of revenue. The for-profit aspects of law enforcement are becoming increasingly worrisome, particularly in criminal matters, as it creates an incentive for the state to convict its citizens in order to turn a profit, thus corrupting the legal system. Then there's the Fourth Amendment violations with the DUI checkpoints.

Furthermore, the states arbitrarily set the legal limit, usually lower than what they had once been. I wonder why that is? Couldn't be because they generate more revenue. If they really wanted the roads safe, the cops that hang out around bars, waiting for the drunks to leave, would stop them before they enter the car and suggest that they take a cab. They don't do that, do they? No, they prefer to catch someone in the presumably dangerous act, rather than preventing it outright. Then we get into the Bizarro World elements; in some states, people who decide to sleep it off in their car, rather than driving drunk, can still get a DUI for being "in control" of the vehicle, so long as the car keys are inside the car.

Also, for the record, I have never received a DUI, and don't go around driving drunk. I just don't think that someone having had a few beers should be criminalized. I guarantee that there are many people who probably weren't even drunk who have received DUI's. Besides, I'm more concerned about the people text messaging while driving. At least the drunks tend to keep their eyes on the road.

Longermonger · 03-03-2011, 12:27 AM

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. And lined with illegal DUI checkpoints.

Don't want DUIs? Don't build bars with parking lots by highways miles away from peoples' houses. Dipshits...I swear. It's a structural problem long before it becomes a behavioral/criminal/constitutional problem.

Kaboom · 03-03-2011, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philhelm

Then we get into the Bizarro World elements; in some states, people who decide to sleep it off in their car, rather than driving drunk, can still get a DUI for being "in control" of the vehicle, so long as the car keys are inside the car.

A friend of mine recently had that happen. I had no idea such a thing could happen, and it enraged and saddened me that it could. I've lost friends to drunk driving, but the way these laws work, and the fact they exist, is almost as sad.