The Ryan Plan- possible GOP doom in 2012?

[wellendowed1911]

The effects of the Ryan Plan has recently been felt in NY as a Dem picked up a seat which many say was the result of the Ryan Plan. The Ryan plan IMHO was a disaster- I saw nothing good it in- there were a few GOP 2012 Presidential candidates who endorsed and it are now backing out of it. Newt Gingrich basically said it was a bad idea and honestly he was right.
Now the GOP has to think of a way to save face and it's getting late in the game.
Here are some other factors that may be DOOM for GOP:
A. Not enough really strong candidates
B. The Palin factor- she has pretty much been the face of the GOP since 2009 and although she has a snowballs chance in Hell of winning, but the GOP failed to put anther face that had a viable chance of winning
C. Strongest candidate is perhaps Mitt Romney, but he has 3 major problems: He's Mormon(sorry it's the truth), very wealthy(don't think he can relate to the avg joe) and he created a Health plan in his State that is a mirror image of Obamacare down to the mandates- good luck Romney defending your plan and trying to rip apart ObamaCare.
D. The GOP still does not have a connection with the AA and Latino vote and I think the Ryan plan will alienate Independents.
E. The Tea party could throw a wrench into their plans- if the Tea party sends someone on their own ticket it will split GOP votes big time.

[dirty dog]

Well, I think the important thing to ask is whether or not the plan it's self is a good idea. I may not agree with this plan, I applaud someone who is willing to begin the debate on cuts to the untouchable programs which are full of pork and fraud. If we can get them to include defense cuts and reasonable tax increases for all income brackets then we may be able to dig our way out of this mess.

[kcbigpapa]

WE, one correction. Obama's health care plan mirrored Romney's. Not vice versa.

[wellendowed1911]

Originally Posted by dirty dog

Well, I think the important thing to ask is whether or not the plan it's self is a good idea. I may not agree with this plan, I applaud someone who is willing to begin the debate on cuts to the untouchable programs which are full of pork and fraud. If we can get them to include defense cuts and reasonable tax increases for all income brackets then we may be able to dig our way out of this mess.

I totally agree with you- I think Defense MUST be on the table and a fair tax break that is fair to all- I know for years many people mentioned the flat tax- I haven't studied it to really comment, but I head there were some major flaws in creating a flat tax.
I didn't like the Ryan plan nd really didn't think it was a good start- there are no plans that are perfect- for example- I like some parts of Obamacare but other parts needs to be thrown out or rewritten, but I didn't like anything in the Ryan plan- vouchers for Medicare??? And then the audacity to have tax breaks for corporations????

[wellendowed1911]

Originally Posted by kcbigpapa

WE, one correction. Obama's health care plan mirrored Romney's. Not vice versa.

Yes you are correct since Romney's plan preceded Obama- but remember HealthCare was one of the main things that got the Tea Party rolling and if Romney gets the nod how is he going to defend his plan to the Tea Party and the GOP? If I am not mistaken Romney's plan had a mandate that you must carry insurance. I read a medical report that stated Massachusetts has the 2nd healthiest citizens in the U.S-hmmm I wonder why? http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5430256/the_thinnest_states_in_the_us. html?cat=5
http://www.walletpop.com/photos/healthiest-states/
I believe the fact that they have a large percentage of their citizens insured is strong evidence that Health care for all is beneficial to America.

[CuteOldGuy]

The Ryan plan is good in that it gets people talking about actually reducing spending, but it is not so good in that it still is just a drop in the bucket of the spending cuts needed. If the Ryan plan cuts are too much for the public to bear, then we might as well forget about liberty, and turn everything over to Government. Those really are our choices.

No form of income tax, flat or progressive, will ever be considered "fair" because there is no consensus on what "fair" is. The income tax will always inhibit growth (inhibit, not prevent) and will always be ripe with fraud because of the way people pay for privileges from Congress, or hide income. So don't bother calling for fairness in the income tax. If you insist on keeping it, tax however you want, but don't call it "fair" because there will always be a significant or wealthy portion of the population claiming it isn't fair, and lobbying for perks for their particular interest.

Romneycare, Obamacare - both are disasters. But at least it is bipartisan this time. The reason they are healthy in Massachusetts is because the clam chowder is FABULOUS!

[john_galt]

Romney can defend his plan because it was a state issue and not a federal issue. Neither worked as advertised but in the state of MA it was constitutional.

In New York you forgot to mention the faux Tea Party candidate who pulled 9 points from the Republican. Those 9 points cost the Republican the election which can't be denied. So is that the plan for 2012? Cheating? Bait and Switch? Deception?

At least the Ryan plan is trying to save Medicare rather than use it as a source of money like Obamacare (the Obama plan pulls half a trillion dollars from Medicare).

Of course if the Obama plan is so good why the 1320 exceptions involving 3 states and millions of employees. It would be nice if the democrats had a campaign where they argued facts rather than demonize the GOP. Yeah, I know they have nothing else.

[wellendowed1911]

Originally Posted by john_galt

Romney can defend his plan because it was a state issue and not a federal issue. Neither worked as advertised but in the state of MA it was constitutional.

In New York you forgot to mention the faux Tea Party candidate who pulled 9 points from the Republican. Those 9 points cost the Republican the election which can't be denied. So is that the plan for 2012? Cheating? Bait and Switch? Deception?

At least the Ryan plan is trying to save Medicare rather than use it as a source of money like Obamacare (the Obama plan pulls half a trillion dollars from Medicare).

Of course if the Obama plan is so good why the 1320 exceptions involving 3 states and millions of employees. It would be nice if the democrats had a campaign where they argued facts rather than demonize the GOP. Yeah, I know they have nothing else.

John you never admit the Truth- regardless if it was state or federal issue- it was sponsored by the government correct? When did I say the ObamaCare was perfect or even great? It has some flaws- even Obama admits it has flaws- it's a good start and helluva a lot better than the status quo.
The Ryan plan is not saving Medicare it's destroying Medicare and putting more money into the pockets of corporations? Do you call issuing vouchers as a way of saving Medicare? Do you believe giving Granny the option to shop for good insurance is a viable option? I am sure all the big Insurance companies are just waiting in line to cover grandma and grandpa!

[CuteOldGuy]

The problem is that we have conditioned the population to be dependent on government. There was a time when there was no Social Security, no Medicare, and no Medicaid. But when they were enacted, the idea behind them was that they were to be supplemental, not a primary source of income or health care, but in an effort to buy votes, politicians kept promising more and more benefits to more and more people. Just like the drug addict who has to have more to get the same buzz, there has to be more money and benefits given to more and more people to get the same votes. And, as the drug addict who will either die, or reach rock bottom and realize they can't continue on the same road and survive, therefore enduring the hell of withdrawal and constant temptation, so will our economy either die, or will have to hit rock bottom and fundamentally change the way we do things.

Everyone, old folks, young folks, middle folks, you, me, business, government are all going to have to give up our perks from government if we are to survive as a free country. This level of spending cannot continue much longer. We have to quit saying "We can't cut that because it will hurt__________ (fill in the blank)." Doing what's right will hurt everyone in the short run, but it might preserve liberty for the long haul. And if you think that if programs are cut, then people will be thrown out on the street, with no one there to pick them up, then we truly have lost the American spirit.

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry

Unless we do something significant and soon, chains and slavery await.

[kcmark]

Well not knowing how old COG is you may be the only one on this board who would remember a time we didnt have S.S. Medicare/aid....and without them who is going to pick those up who are thrown out on the street? Church's? With their tax exempt status? The radical Christian Right who are as bad as any radical muslim? We have paid into them and they are not an entitlement. I can tell you a great way to fix all 3 of the conservatives so called entitlements....Put people back to work....repeal the bush tax cuts...take out the caps on social security earnings...change the tax code to no deductions for anything...you pay taxes on what you earn...legalize pot...end the 2 wars...put small biz owners, working people, working single moms in charge of the budget you know the people who make a budget and stick to it...close all foreign military bases...

[wellendowed1911]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

The problem is that we have conditioned the population to be dependent on government. There was a time when there was no Social Security, no Medicare, and no Medicaid. But when they were enacted, the idea behind them was that they were to be supplemental, not a primary source of income or health care, but in an effort to buy votes, politicians kept promising more and more benefits to more and more people. Just like the drug addict who has to have more to get the same buzz, there has to be more money and benefits given to more and more people to get the same votes. And, as the drug addict who will either die, or reach rock bottom and realize they can't continue on the same road and survive, therefore enduring the hell of withdrawal and constant temptation, so will our economy either die, or will have to hit rock bottom and fundamentally change the way we do things.

Everyone, old folks, young folks, middle folks, you, me, business, government are all going to have to give up our perks from government if we are to survive as a free country. This level of spending cannot continue much longer. We have to quit saying "We can't cut that because it will hurt__________ (fill in the blank)." Doing what's right will hurt everyone in the short run, but it might preserve liberty for the long haul. And if you think that if programs are cut, then people will be thrown out on the street, with no one there to pick them up, then we truly have lost the American spirit.

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry

Unless we do something significant and soon, chains and slavery await.

I tell you what is lost COG- you have these right wing guys who say if we tax the wealthy or if we repeal the Bush tax cuts then the "wealthy" will stop spending money and stop creating jobs and it will hurt our economic growth Several states have "Millionaire taxes" where they tax the wealthy a greater percentage- but a lot of governors backed away from it saying :" oh if we tax the rich they will just move out of state o to another State that doesn't have as millionaire tax" That is so absurd as saying if medicaid in one state takes least say certain medications off their formulary(sp) or charges 1 dollar instead of zero co-pay that the people on Medicaid will leave that state and go to another state whee all the mes have zero co-pays. We need these politicians to stop getting scared and tax the rich- plain and simple!

[CuteOldGuy]

You can tax the rich all you want, they will find a way around it. Not saying I approve of that, but they will. They are leaving New York and California in droves. But even you taxed all the income earned over $250K per year, we still wouldn't even cover this year's deficit. The solution is spending cuts, and go ahead and raise taxes, but that won't solve the problem.

But I am not opposed to taxing the rich more, it's just that you can't tax them enough, and they will figure out how to not pay it. And how will they avoid paying it? I'm glad you asked. Through high priced lawyers and lobbyists who will work hard to obtain and exploit tax loopholes. It's the rich who get noticed and favored when it comes time to ask for campaign donations.

So, as long as we have an income tax it will never be fair, and never be enough.

[JRLawrence]

A good CPA is $150/hour, and worth every cent of it.

JR

[wellendowed1911]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

You can tax the rich all you want, they will find a way around it. Not saying I approve of that, but they will. They are leaving New York and California in droves. But even you taxed all the income earned over $250K per year, we still wouldn't even cover this year's deficit. The solution is spending cuts, and go ahead and raise taxes, but that won't solve the problem.

But I am not opposed to taxing the rich more, it's just that you can't tax them enough, and they will figure out how to not pay it. And how will they avoid paying it? I'm glad you asked. Through high priced lawyers and lobbyists who will work hard to obtain and exploit tax loopholes. It's the rich who get noticed and favored when it comes time to ask for campaign donations.

So, as long as we have an income tax it will never be fair, and never be enough.

COG- the taxes the rich have to pay are the lowest ever- during the Einsenhower years I believe they were paying well over 50 percent in taxes- I think it's a huge LIE that the vast majority of rich will find loopholes(yes some will), but I think the majority of them would honestly pay- because even after they pay their taxes they are still very wealthy. It's not as if taxing a Billionaire will make him feel like a millionaire- or taxing a millionaire is going to make him feel like a middle class person. Yes, I agree you can't do with just taxing the rich- you have to cut spending which must include MILITARY!!!

[CuteOldGuy]

I agree with you WE. Except you have a kinder opinion of the rich than I do. My point is, and I think you got it, is that taxing the rich won't solve the problem. And nothing should be sacred when it comes to cuts, including the military. But the military is another bugaboo. (Yeah, you like that word?) So much of our military planning involves lining the pockets of defense contractors, who, coincidentally, make large campaign contributions to House and Senate candidates, as well as Presidential candidates. If we took several of our brightest Generals and Admirals, put them in a room and let them determine what we needed and where it should be built without consideration for who donated to whom, we'd have a more efficient, stronger, and less expensive Defense Department.

But I will support taxing the rich, I just don't think it will do any good. The rich people I know are the cheapest bastards, and would rather spend $2,000 figuring out how to get out of $1,000 worth of taxes.