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VeronicaMoore · 03-16-2010, 11:11 AM

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If you read her initial and subsequent responses to me, you'd think differently.

Well, obvs, we're not in your inbox so we didn't see that private email exchange. And also, I didn't see it in the alert section, but apparently it was moved from alerts to co-ed. Yeah, it wasn't alert-worthy at all LOL.

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I know it's a double standard, but I really think rather than just automatically assume the guy was a creep and up to no good,

Ordinarily, I would agree with you. But being a MALE in this very specific focus of photography DOES put someone at a disadvantage and for VERY GOOD REASON. MOST men (and there are a *few* exceptions) who are boudoir "photographers" ARE skeevy, creepy pervs. That is a FACT. Every woman (especially providers) knows this. Do you know how many gross pervy old men send out emails trying to take nekkid women pictures EVERY DAY?? Do you know how many photographers who you THINK are legitimate get visible erections and feel the need to COMMENT on them when you're sitting right there trying to be professional? Ones that make off-colour comments because they know you're an escort?? FREEKIN' LOTS! If it happens more often than not, then yeah wouldn't it be a pretty good assumption to make. Again, I'm not saying that's how Dave, specifically, operates, but MANY do.

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the better approach would have been to do a li'l research on him to find out what others have thought of his work....If he's a legit businessman, and if he sent his website info (or other business info) in that email/PM, then she could have easily checked him out and there would have been no need for this thread...

But the thing is... he's "relatively" new. I didn't see testimonials up on his site from satisfied customers. I haven't ever seen ladies talk about how great his work is and how professional he is (again, not saying he's not professional, but how can you be expected to "do research" if there are no source materials??? reviews, if you will lol) There's no way to know that Dave was a photographer without seeing examples of his work and asking the provider who did the pictures. A watermark on the photos on photos NOT already on his site would help with recognition, so his work would be more identified as his, THEN a lady could know it's his work and ask around about how he is to work with. You know what I mean?? Hell, I didn't even know he was a photographer until Annie told me. We're not mind readers lol. How is anybody supposed to know (and do the appropriate research) if nobody is talking about it!

BIG C · 03-16-2010, 11:37 AM

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoore

Also, I didn't see it in the alert section, but apparently it was moved from alerts to co-ed. Yeah, it wasn't alert-worthy at all LOL.

Yeah, she originally posted this as an alert and I moved it from alerts to discussion.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeronicaMoore

Ordinarily, I would agree with you. But being a MALE in this very specific focus of photography DOES put someone at a disadvantage and for VERY GOOD REASON. MOST men (and there are a *few* exceptions) who are boudoir "photographers" ARE skeevy, creepy pervs. That is a FACT. Every woman (especially providers) knows this. Do you know how many gross pervy old men send out emails trying to take nekkid women pictures EVERY DAY?? Do you know how many photographers who you THINK are legitimate get visible erections and feel the need to COMMENT on them when you're sitting right there trying to be professional? Ones that make off-colour comments because they know you're an escort?? FREEKIN' LOTS! If it happens more often than not, then yeah wouldn't it be a pretty good assumption to make. Again, I'm not saying that's how Dave, specifically, operates, but MANY do.

I'm not wanting to get into a knockdown, drag out debate on this, but when I hear comments like "Most men are this way," "Most black guys are this way," "Most (insert whatever label you want here) do this or do that" those statements really don't carry much weight.....I still say that it's completely wrong to stereotype someone just because you believe the hype....Comments made with something to support it other than conjecture about what "MOST whatever" do are given better weight than just innuendo and stereotyping.....I still say that she should have tried to check Dave out rather than responding the way she did.....And if she didn't want to take him up on his offer, then simply telling him "Thanks, but No Thanks" would have been appropriate.....

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoore

But the thing is... he's "relatively" new. I didn't see testimonials up on his site from satisfied customers. I haven't ever seen ladies talk about how great his work is and how professional he is (again, not saying he's not professional, but how can you be expected to "do research" if there are no source materials??? reviews, if you will lol) There's no way to know that Dave was a photographer without seeing examples of his work and asking the provider who did the pictures. A watermark on the photos on photos NOT already on his site would help with recognition, so his work would be more identified as his, THEN a lady could know it's his work and ask around about how he is to work with. You know what I mean?? Hell, I didn't even know he was a photographer until Annie told me. We're not mind readers lol. How is anybody supposed to know (and do the appropriate research) if nobody is talking about it!

Definitely ALL good questions, to which I can't answer.....Errrr, Dave, step up to the plate here.....

VeronicaMoore · 03-16-2010, 11:43 AM

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.I would be interested in hearing why you think being a MALE AUTOMATICALLY puts someone at a disadvantage

Really C?? It needs to be spelled out???

Okay then...

If all things are equal... exact same images, exact same pricing, exact same marketing, studio, everything being 100% equal... if there are two photographers, Dave and Davina, WHO do you think most women is going to pick to do her photos??? As if it really needs to be asked lol. Most prefer women or gay men to do intimate photography.

A woman is more comfortable around other women (blow #1 against a male photographer). She knows that a woman isn't judging her body or getting "turned on" by it. If another woman makes the comment, "Oh wow you have SUCH a nice rack!" that's not offensive to most. A man makes the same comment? Defense shields go up. A woman knows what another woman's concerns are.

Sometimes when you're shooting someone, you have to adjust the clothing for optimal results. When you're shooting lingerie, to make any adjustments, you have to get close to "the danger zones" (lol). Most women would rather have another woman adjusting her boobs to fit into her bra properly than a man (blow #2 against a male photographer). A woman could reach and have already made the adjustment and laugh it off ("oh hey... not trying to feel you up haha") while a man is still finding a gentle way to ask if he can make the adjustments... that is if he even mentions it all.

The chances of a female photographer thinking pervy thought and having those thoughts shine through with their facial expressions are very slim. Many women are intuitive and can sense when someone's thinking creepy thoughts. So if you're thinking them, we usually know lol. It takes a very professional and dedicated man to be in the presence of a beautiful naked woman and NOT think creepy thoughts. They do exist, but come on... be realistic here... they are few and far between (blow #3).

I could go on.......

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I'm not wanting to get into a knockdown, drag out debate on this, but when I hear comments like "Most men are this way," "Most black guys are this way," "Most (insert whatever label you want here) do this or do that" those statements really don't carry much weight.....I still say that it's completely wrong to stereotype someone just because you believe the hype....Comments made with something to support it other than conjecture about what "MOST whatever" do are given better weight than just innuendo and stereotyping.....I still say that she should have tried to check Dave out rather than responding the way she did.....And if she didn't want to take him up on his offer, then simply telling him "Thanks, but No Thanks" would have been appropriate.....

I already agreed with you that a "no thanks" would have been appropriate. But when I'm trying to show where she may have been coming from with her concerns, I get "well, a woman can be just as much as a perv." No really?? lol It CAN happen. Hell, it CAN rain frogs! That doesn't mean it's as likely to happen.

If you get 60 emails a year from photographers wanting to shoot you.... and 50+ of them are from men, of that number about half of them are going to say something inappropriate that turns you off just within email exchanges (yes, this happens!). From the 25 left over, there will be some whose work is lacking, some who you look for reviews of online and other women say pretty much "well, his work is good, but he's a little creepy. If you're no easily offended, go for it." That leaves you with about 10 (if that many). And the female photographers? Well, women love them. Your only concern is usually if there are going to be her husband/boyfriend/other men lurking around the studio or if her work is good. I mean, it sucks for the genuinely great, talented and professional male photographers out there, but that's how it us. And for them ignore the fact that they're starting off with a disadvantage would be doing themselves a great disservice. Don't just dismiss it because you don't think it's fair. Know it going in and work against it to prove yourself through your work and your demeanor. Find out what female concerns are with male intimate photographers and address them in a way that says "I'm not like that, and here is why." Testimonials go a long way. Making mention of these known issues on the F.A.Q. goes a long way too. I'm not trying to down Dave or any professional male photographers, but ONCE AGAIN even suggesting that someone tries to stop and look at things from a woman's point of view on this board is met with resistance (imagine that!). Why do I even try?? lol

Just because you think statements that have "most" in them don't carry any weight, doesn't make it a fact and doesn't mean that they don't. As the saying goes, "good or bad, most stereotypes exist for a reason."

BIG C · 03-16-2010, 12:02 PM

And all of what you stated can't really be argued except that I still say stereotyping someone based on gender is immature at best.....And all those same comments can be applied to a lesbian photographer.....Further, I see a helluva lot of men photographers out there and many ladies are quite comfortable going to them.....And before you bring it up, you don't know if those photogs are hobbyists or not.....

Yeah, I could go on and on and on, but I think the most well known and respected photogs are in fact men and not women.....Heidi's response was jut totally inappropriate in this case.....At least that's what seems to be the consensus (and not just from the other hobbyists and there seems to be a few providers who think the same)....

VeronicaMoore · 03-16-2010, 12:16 PM

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I still say stereotyping someone based on gender is immature at best...

It's wrong. It's disgusting. You're right. But to go about with your business acting like it DOESN'T happen isn't doing yourself any favors. Recognize that it does happen and work on minimize the concerns is all I'm saying.

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Heidi's response was jut totally inappropriate in this case.....At least that's what seems to be the consensus (and not just from the other hobbyists and there seems to be a few providers who think the same)

I have already said I agree with that SEVERAL TIMES now. But I also said while it was inappropriate, one must take into consideration what caused her to react that way. Hell, the only reason why I even said anything is because I was trying to HELP Dave understand why someone might say something like that. But like I said... once again... why even bother trying to point out an alternate point of view on this board? lol it's truly an exercise in futility.

BIG C · 03-16-2010, 12:29 PM

Hey, despite how it may seem, no one said your comments didn't have merit (honest and for goodness true).....I just said that she was wrong and it's not right to stereotype.....Didn't say it doesn't exist.....And for the record, I happen to like your alternative viewpoint posts as for the most part you speak intelligently and argue your points in a civil manner whether anyone agrees with you or not.....Quite a refreshing concept when compared to what's been going on on the Nawlins boards over the past few years.....

MuffDVR · 03-16-2010, 12:31 PM

ummmm Veronica , we also have the He-Man woman haters club too.

VeronicaMoore · 03-16-2010, 12:36 PM

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Originally Posted by MuffDVR

ummmm Veronica , we also have the He-Man woman haters club too.

Yes, I know. It's called the Men's Lounge board.

MuffDVR · 03-16-2010, 12:45 PM

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoore

Yes, I know. It's called the Men's Lounge board.

Shit no, nobody talks trash on women there.. too many of you girls have a 2nd account to read that shit!

VeronicaMoore · 03-16-2010, 12:50 PM

More like women know because they HAVE seen it LOL

(As much as I'd LOVE to talk about y'alls leaks in "bcd," it's VERY off-topic)

pornodave69 · 03-16-2010, 01:02 PM

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Originally Posted by BIG C

Definitely ALL good questions, to which I can't answer.....Errrr, Dave, step up to the plate here.....

My user info page has had my occupation as a photographer since the day I joined ASPD and ECCIE. My new website address is on my signature as well. I've sent an email to the staff here to buy an ad banner at the top of the page in order to get my "name" and info out there. With the escorts I have photographed already, I didn't put my main business name on the photos since it could be traced back to me and my personal information. I have mentioned that I am a photographer several times in numerous threads and have even responded to posts complimenting Nikki on her new photos. When I posted a few of her photos in reviews, I put ©Dave69 on the pics for this board. I have mentioned shooting models several times in various threads. It's no secret what I do, you just have to pay attention and read the right threads. Unless they forgot, all the ladies I've seen know I'm a photographer as well.

One reason why I started this side company was to be able to put a name to the photos but to remain anonymous to a certain extent for this community, which is one of the reasons for sending out the emails in the first place and offering a discount for my services in exchange for posting the photos on my site. If a face is not shown, no model release is needed. If a facial shot is used then legally a model releases must be signed for me to use the image. We both are at risk for exposure but the trust/hope that a professional relationship will be maintained is key. Just like in nuclear war, "mutual destruction" or "mutual deterrent" is obtained by both parties knowing what cards the other holds, or in this case who the other party is. You stay quiet, I stay quiet. You out me, I out you. Simple.

My other site is geared toward "regular" clients and the corporate world so privacy is not an option. This site has private registration and my full name does not appear on it either.

FYI, I have done photos for Angie of LA, Nikki Tylor and Lexi Love.

Hope this helps answer those questions.

MuffDVR · 03-16-2010, 01:07 PM

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoore

More like women know because they HAVE seen it LOL

(As much as I'd LOVE to talk about y'alls leaks in "bcd," it's VERY off-topic)

HEY! Friends dont call Friends "LEAKS", Bad girl! bad Girl! .. lol.

Dave, the world of photography has changed, 20yrs ago u offer to take a woman picture and you were great.. today do it and you are a Perv. So you have to expect there will always be someone who craps on your talent, but hey, who ever thought it would be an escort crapping on your profession eh? Pot.. Kettle.. Point,lol.

VeronicaMoore · 03-16-2010, 01:16 PM

Hmmm... Can you read?? I never crapped on his profession.

You know, your little "renegade" persona and immature antics might get under others' skin and get them riled up. But that doesn't work on me. I just chalk them up to your ignorance, boredom, lack of... well... just lacking in general. Sooooo since I'm not going to let you bother me, let's say you save yourself the time and energy here and keep your little wannabe-instigating comments to yourself. Kthx

pornodave69 · 03-16-2010, 01:35 PM

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Originally Posted by MuffDVR

Dave, the world of photography has changed, 20yrs ago u offer to take a woman picture and you were great.. today do it and you are a Perv. So you have to expect there will always be someone who craps on your talent, but hey, who ever thought it would be an escort crapping on your profession eh? Pot.. Kettle.. Point,lol.

The funny thing is that one provider has already commented in a PM on my rates being to high and I should lower them to get new business. I'll address her directly later, but talking about the pot calling the kettle black? How many threads have been started by guys talking about rates and have resulted in rants and tirades from the ladies about how they're worth every penny and how dare we ask for a lower rate and if you can't afford it go elsewhere? I guess bargaining only works one way.

I'm asking for $400.00 which includes my time, up to two hours, 3 to 5 outfit or scene changes and a CD with 20 images for them to keep and reproduce in any manner they would like.

One escort (http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=105926&postcount=1) paid a photographer $2500 for 24 images and she can't even use them due to them not having a location release signed by the hotel. The hotel found out about her site and recognized the photos and had her remove them. Some were altered so the hotel would not be recognized but that ruined the photos, so now she's stuck with useless pics for $2500.

Location releases are funny things, in that it's hard to get permission to shoot an escort at a hotel if asked in that manner. Asking to do a model shoot will get a better response but is still not fool proof, especially if nudity is mentioned. Luckily, most chain hotel rooms are hard to recognize and the exact location can't be specified and it's usually not an issue. Use an upscale, 5 star boutique hotel with a unique look and it's a whole different story.

MuffDVR · 03-16-2010, 01:36 PM

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoore

Hmmm... Can you read?? I never crapped on his profession.

You know, your little "renegade" persona and immature antics might get under others' skin and get them riled up. But that doesn't work on me. I just chalk them up to your ignorance, boredom, lack of... well... just lacking in general. Sooooo since I'm not going to let you bother me, let's say you save yourself the time and energy here and keep your little wannabe-instigating comments to yourself. Kthx

wow ... and to think i was addressing the OP, lol Maybe you flatter yourself thinking i was going to comment on your book writing ability? Shit i didnt read it,lol too much to read this early in the day. Calm down there girl, slow your roll, stop assuming its never a good thing. thats what i get for trying to put the thread back on topic.. THWARTED!