On Juneteenth, the legacy of slavery

[Salty Again]

... Ok, IF you mean the reparations issue, then it IS political, Tiny.

#### Salty

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Salty Again

... Ok, IF you mean the reparations issue, then it IS political, Tiny.

#### Salty

Well yes, that’s an example Salty. You’re not going to find many slave owners or slave traders around today, so who do the reparations come from? And no slaves, so who do they go to? Most descendants of slaves in places like the USA and parts of the Caribbean are better off than their distant cousins who remain in Africa.

My son has DNA from the Ivory Coast, a slave trading nation. Should taxpayers shell out for reparations for him, five or more generations after the fact, when he’s probably going to lead a pretty cushy life anyway?

So how about tackling the consequences of slavery, poverty and violence instead, in ways that benefit America? Better education, criminal justice reform, help for poor children, better government, those sort of things.

[rooster]

This is a damn fine thread! Seriously. I have really enjoyed reading it. And every time I have felt like someone missed a point or got something wrong, someone else picked up on it.

I fear that reparations is way too complicated, not realistic.

That being said, this sums it up pretty well.

Originally Posted by Tiny

....

So how about tackling the consequences of slavery, poverty and violence instead, in ways that benefit America? Better education, criminal justice reform, help for poor children, better government, those sort of things.

There is such a huge backlash against "DEI" and "Woke" right now that we are taking steps backward on addressing these things. It is really disturbing. Medicaid cuts are an example that worries me, especially. The idea that they are just going to eliminate fraud is a lie. They are going to take away health care for millions of people that have nothing else to rely on. But we will ALL pay for that in worse ways. It is very much in everyone's benefit to ensure that people get the health care that they need. And that everyone deserves.

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[Jacky S]

Originally Posted by VitaMan

Africans were organized as tribes. Many hated and feared each other. When there came time to make a buck capturing other tribes and selling them, they had no issues doing that.

Surprised the native Indians did not do the same. Many hated each other. But they were not much located in the sugar producing areas.

If you want to study extreme slavery, study the experience of the places on the upper coast of South America and Haiti.

Central American indigenous populations, particularly the Mayans and later the Aztecs, were brutal in the way they invaded other tribes to not only garner slaves, but to gather human sacrifice for their various Gods.

This fact was very instrumental in the way Conquistadors such as Cortez was able to subjugate the Aztecs. The other indigenous people were glad to ally with him due to their hatred for the Aztecs.

History is filled with instances of one people enslaving others.

And I stand by my statement that few Countries have ever paid such a high price in human death and suffering as The United States did to end the practice.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by rooster

This is a damn fine thread! Seriously. I have really enjoyed reading it. And every time I have felt like someone missed a point or got something wrong, someone else picked up on it.

I fear that reparations is way too complicated, not realistic.

That being said, this sums it up pretty well.



There is such a huge backlash against "DEI" and "Woke" right now that we are taking steps backward on addressing these things. It is really disturbing. Medicaid cuts are an example that worries me, especially. The idea that they are just going to eliminate fraud is a lie. They are going to take away health care for millions of people that have nothing else to rely on. But we will ALL pay for that in worse ways. It is very much in everyone's benefit to ensure that people get the health care that they need. And that everyone deserves.

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And that's a damn good post Rooster.

How about taking DEI and Woke out of the equation? Morgan Freeman seems to suggest that in the video link a couple of pages back. Just concentrate on the issues, like healthcare and education that fail black Americans most. That way the factionalism that Blackman brought up wouldn't be as big a barrier.

You look at longevity, infant mortality, access to healthcare, quality of care, and black Americans and poorer Americans come out on the short end of the stick. I don't believe Medicaid is the answer. Rather the system needs to be radically restructured. We spend 17.6% of GDP on healthcare, and of that government expenditures are 8.6% of GDP. There are a lot of countries that spend 8.6% of GDP or less on healthcare, what our government alone spends alone, and have better outcomes than we do, including places like Panama, Albania and Costa Rica. Anyway, that's a topic for another thread.

[rooster]

Originally Posted by Jacky S

Central American indigenous populations, particularly the Mayans and later the Aztecs, were brutal in the way they invaded other tribes to not only garner slaves, but to gather human sacrifice for their various Gods.

This fact was very instrumental in the way Conquistadors such as Cortez was able to subjugate the Aztecs. The other indigenous people were glad to ally with him due to their hatred for the Aztecs.

History is filled with instances of one people enslaving others.

And I stand by my statement that few Countries have ever paid such a high price in human death and suffering as The United States did to end the practice.

Interesting ideas about Central America. I have always been shocked at the genocide waged by the Spanish there...with the full complicity of the Catholic Church, btw. But you have a very good point that they were just as brutal to their own people. Was your intent there to make a comparison to the way African tribes were so complicit in slave trade in the Americas? Again...really interesting. I had not thought about this in that way.

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[rooster]

Originally Posted by Tiny

....

You look at longevity, infant mortality, access to healthcare, quality of care, and black Americans and poorer Americans come out on the short end of the stick. I don't believe Medicaid is the answer. Rather the system needs to be radically restructured. We spend 17.6% of GDP on healthcare, and of that government expenditures are 8.6% of GDP. There are a lot of countries that spend 8.6% of GDP or less on healthcare, what our government alone spends alone, and have better outcomes than we do, including places like Panama, Albania and Costa Rica. Anyway, that's a topic for another thread.

Yes, a topic for another thread, agreed. I did just want to say though, that I don't believe Medicaid is the answer either. But expelling millions of people from it now without helping them with an alternative is a step backwards.

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[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Jacky S

Central American indigenous populations, particularly the Mayans and later the Aztecs, were brutal in the way they invaded other tribes to not only garner slaves, but to gather human sacrifice for their various Gods.

This fact was very instrumental in the way Conquistadors such as Cortez was able to subjugate the Aztecs. The other indigenous people were glad to ally with him due to their hatred for the Aztecs.

History is filled with instances of one people enslaving others.

And I stand by my statement that few Countries have ever paid such a high price in human death and suffering as The United States did to end the practice.

Interesting, thanks. I can't find the paper, but there was a scholarly piece that looked at homicide rates and correlated them with places worldwide that were slave states. The correlation was strong. A lot of the places were in Latin America, where the Spanish essentially enslaved the natives.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by rooster

Yes, a topic for another thread, agreed. I did just want to say though, that I don't believe Medicaid is the answer either. But expelling millions of people from it now without helping them with an alternative is a step backwards.

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Yeah, if you've got to work with the system we've got, that's a good point.

[1blackman1]

Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

all of it matters or none of it matters. your obvious overemphasis of "once in the US" is a total downplay of the black involvement in africa. and if you want to continue to blame white people for this blame England. its their fault for making the US their colony with slavery in the first place.


we agree that there was a very small number of blacks who owned blacks in that era. there was also a very small number of whites in the deep south that owned slaves, about 2-3 percent. that means 97% of them didn't own slaves. other than the ones that died fighting for the CSA what do the rest of them owe anyone?

So if a Rapist abuses and rapes his own adult child then sells that child to another rapist, then from your view the actions of the buyer and second rapist are not relevant and the person should not be punished. Am I understanding you correctly.

[Jacky S]

Originally Posted by rooster

Interesting ideas about Central America. I have always been shocked at the genocide waged by the Spanish there...with the full complicity of the Catholic Church, btw. But you have a very good point that they were just as brutal to their own people. Was your intent there to make a comparison to the way African tribes were so complicit in slave trade in the Americas? Again...really interesting. I had not thought about this in that way.

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The Black populations in Africa would not have rounded up one human being if there had not been a market for their “product”.

The single biggest difference in the African Slave Trade and what Indigenous Americans were doing to each other is the Whites, (ie non Blacks), who were involved in the African Slave Trades considered Blacks to be Sub Human.
The Aztecs did not consider other Tribes to be sub human, they looked upon them as helpless prey, which is exactly how they treated them.

This is also a contributing factor in these non Aztecs willingness to ally themselves with Cortez.

[rooster]

Didn't the Catholic church basically adopt the same philosophy, i.e. since the indigenous people were not "saved" they did not have souls and so killing them was acceptable? Or am I just repeating something simplistic that I heard somewhere?

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[Jacky S]

Originally Posted by rooster

Didn't the Catholic church basically adopt the same philosophy, i.e. since the indigenous people were not "saved" they did not have souls and so killing them was acceptable? Or am I just repeating something simplistic that I heard somewhere?

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Historically, the Catholic Church has been one of the most corrupt institutions on the Planet.
They yielded the power of excommunication, which was basically theological blackmail. “Do as we say, or burn in Hell for eternity”.

Even Kings and Queens had to succumb to this lunacy.

That shit went on for centuries until Henry V111 told the Pope to stick it where the sun didn’t shine.

But honestly, I don’t know what the Catholic Church’s policy was on slaver, other than they never did much to quell it.

[rooster]

Originally Posted by Jacky S

Historically, the Catholic Church has been one of the most corrupt institutions on the Planet....

As a disenfranchised Cat'lick....I could not agree more.

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[TechPapi]

Originally Posted by rooster

As a disenfranchised Cat'lick....I could not agree more.

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Why pick on catholics? Seriously, anyone that believes in a sky-bully is just fucking deluded. Put on your big-boy pants and stop believing in stupid shit.