3600 Views and a 126 replies in less than 40 hours and you lock a thread because the OP isn't getting things her way and requests it?

[Natalie Reign]

Beautifully written, David, and with equal weight on both the provider and hobbyist sides. Welcome to the community. I look forward to reading more from you.

[Whispers]

Originally Posted by St.Mateo

....... I was asked by all of the owners to do this so when you whine about where a mod is from just remember that is insignificant vs the problems all of you created

All of you that bitch and moan created this environment. Its up to you now to fix it

Just curious and would like a little clarification.

When you say you were asked by all the owners to do this ..... do you mean be a moderator?... or do you mean make this post and deal with these specific problems?

It is two totally different subjects because one answer would indicate they lack faith in our existing Local Mods. The other answer would indicate that you lack faith in them.

In regards to how you are saying what you are saying...... Having met the owners ....... I would think they would want moderation done in a manner that is not quite so "down their throats" as your approach seems to be.

I'm not going to tolerate this.... I'm going to do that... Your going to do this......

Space posted to this thread... Sixx seems to be aware as well.....

IS there some problem with what they have to say that they cannot deal with the situation?

TexRich made a spot on assessment of the fact that Austin is rather unique in the problems it has and you have to have people that understand that difference deal with it.

The owners acknowledged that at one point seeking out input in the Locker Room regarding prior Moderators as well as the problems we've had in Austin for a while. Which is why AUstin is 180 degrees opposite of what it used to be.

With all due respect man, I am curious if you have read any of that information and are aware of it and if you consult with Sixx or Space before jumping into something you might not understand.....

You are surely going to get a big HURRAH from the old ASPD clowns that used to run rampant over ASPD and Eccie when we migrated..... You've already got at least one.....

But the OWNERs ended up replacing them in the long run for a reason.... Austin needed something different....

I honestly don't understand some decisions being made.

But to be BRUTALLY HONEST about the subject of this thread.

If you guys would have powwowed and had Sixx or Space close and lock the thread none of this would be here right now as far as I am concerned.

Maybe I'm wrong for saying it but they are Austin guys that I respect and either of them can pick up the phone and tell me to Shut the Fuck Up and I will do it because I support their presence as Mods and to do otherwise would be hypocritical.

For anyone dealing with something that was as polarizing as that thread was you sure should have had their input on it as well as what is said here.

[RoundRockSecret]

Hey David! Welcome!

[78704]

Originally Posted by davidsmith0123

There was a lot of talk about provider income. Certainly the hourly rates are impressive, but how many hours? We can all do the math, and what seems to be a focal point income of $100K (mentioned several times in the original thread) requires about 20 sessions per 50 weeks at $100, 10 per 50 weeks at $200, and about 6.5 at $300.

Good point. Wikipedia says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin,_Texas#Demographics that in 2000 in Austin the median income for a household in the city was $42,689, and the median income for a family was $54,091. Males had a median income of $35,545 vs. $30,046 for females. The per capita income for the city was $24,163.

Shooting for a $100k part-time job seems unreasonable.

[Carl]

While they aren't local, St Mateo and SPHunter have been listed as Austin forum mods for months, so they do share responsibility for moderating the Austin forums. I suspect that they may have dropped the hammer, not because they were trying to undercut sixx or Spacemtn, but to take the heat for the hammer dropping. I've watched enough Law & Order to recognize "Good Cop/Bad Cop" being played out.

[Natalie Reign]

Carl, it's hard to take you seriously with that cute DJ Kitteh bopping his head to some tunes.

But back on track, I wouldn't be surprised if St. Mateo stepped in to take the heat. Either way, in my mind, a mod is a mod. They are awarded that position because they are trusted to make decisions based on the good of the board and the community. If something needs moderating, it doesn't matter to me whether the mod resides in Austin, Montana or St. Louis. It just matters that someone with some amount of board-given authority is guiding the community to follow the rules and intent of the board.

Sometimes we'll agree with those decisions and sometimes we won't. But bashing a mod's decision to close a thread simply because the mod lives in another city? That's reaching, IMO.

[Whispers]

Originally Posted by Natalie Reign

But bashing a mod's decision to close a thread simply because the mod lives in another city? That's reaching, IMO.

I didn't bash a Mod for closing a thread because of where he lived......

I think the entire concept of allowing an OP to request a thread be closed is wrong.

This particular thread had tremendous participation from both sides of the fence and should have been moderated instead of closed.

My comments as to where a mod was located came in AFTER it was suggested we could post to the same thread in the Dallas Forums.

IMO a ludicrous alternative....

[Smart]

Can someone please provide a theoretical itemized breakdown of "hobby-related" expenses for providers (please, no one post their actual expenses - not looking for documented proof)? The accountant/auditor in me calls BS on any provider being able to claim $1500 of work expenses per month that are absolutely essential to her profession.

I'm not trying to be rude or objectionable - if anything, I'd like to understand where providers are coming from if they really feel like they can't get away cheaper than that.

[blenderhead]

Originally Posted by Smart

Can someone please provide a theoretical itemized breakdown of "hobby-related" expenses for providers (please, no one post their actual expenses - not looking for documented proof)? The accountant/auditor in me calls BS on any provider being able to claim $1500 of work expenses per month that are absolutely essential to her profession.

I'm not trying to be rude or objectionable - if anything, I'd like to understand where providers are coming from if they really feel like they can't get away cheaper than that.

I'd like to see that, too. An incall would be the biggest expense, but a lot of girls share. Manicures/pedicures/hair/gas is standard for any lady in any job, pretty much. Condoms are cheap, a couple of bottles of water, cheap. Soap, cheap. Towels, cheap. Outfits? Most girls I've seen don't dress that fancy, and a lot of them are $$$. Hobby phone, cheap. What am I missing?

[Carl]

Just as a hypothetical:

rent and utilities on an apartment or condo used as an incall. (Or about $100/day for a nice clean safe hotel room, once all the taxes and room charges are included keep in mind that some of the gals have bad or no credit, so they may have to pay a premium to get a nice apartment or condo to use as an incall or get a "ghetto place." Unless of course you'd like to co-sign for them.)

phone or cable modem/internet in the incall location (would be nice to check emails and PMs, maybe Instant Messages)

separate/additional (hobby) cell phone (keep in mind that some of the gals may have bad or no credit and the cheapest most flexible plans may not be available to them unless you want to co-sign for them)

rental on furniture and appliances. (unless you're cool with doing anything and everything on the floor and her never washing any sheets and towels)

consumables in the incall (soap, toilet paper, paper towels, condoms, lube, mouthwash, toothpaste, douche, detergent, air freshener, bottled water and soft drinks for clients).

Basically, if the gal has her own private incall, she's keeping a fairly complete second residence and life. And if she has credit issues she may be paying a bit of a premium to acquire and maintain it.

And some girls do share an incall, but remember when you were in college and struggling and sometimes your roomie was late with payments or skipped them altogether and you got stuck with the entire tab plus late fees? Keep in mind as hobbyists when we complain of providers having bad TCB skills, some of those skills include things that we never see like that. Over the years I've heard tale after tale from providers getting screwed over on incall or phone or other expenses by other providers they were "sharing" those expenses with.

[Rand Al'Thor]

Originally Posted by Natalie Reign

Thank you, Codybeast, for an insightful and constructive post. I wish that more Austin hobbyists would speak up in a positive manner on this board, but I'm beginning to feel that the increasing negativity and hostile interactions that have been taking place recently are simply too much for the providers to manage while still keeping a good attitude about the hobby in general. As a consequence, many of the ladies have decided to stay away from the Co-Ed boards entirely. To me, that's quite a shame, because I've taken part in some valuable, interesting and just plain fun threads in the past, and believe that's the main reason these forums exist: to communicate in a constructive manner.

I agree that most hobbyists would like to pay less for the same great service. And I acknowledge that most providers would enjoy earning more for the same great service. The problem here is that what a provider offers isn't just a service; it's her body, the most important thing she owns. Women's bodies are intricately connected to their emotions, and despite our best efforts to compartmentalize, our emotions undoubtedly contribute to our performance in this job.

As GFE providers, we are expected to be someone that our clients could see themselves falling in love with. To play the part, we must convey interest in the client as a person, pay attention to his turn-ons and turn-offs, and create a passionate environment for our encounters to take place. I'm not sure about everyone else, but when I do all those things, I'm not pretending. I genuinely care about the client's needs, desires and satisfaction - not simply because I want him as a repeat client (of course I do!), but also because I gain a sense of personal satisfaction from the nurturing aspects of the hobby. We talk, get to know each other on a deeper level, and reflect a sense of caring for each other, even if only for an hour at a time. If I know a client didn't leave my incall feeling extraordinarily pampered and relaxed, then I refrain from seeing him again and refer him to someone better suited to his needs. The fact that I care this much inevitably makes way for my emotions to intertwine with my physical acts.

Because my emotions are so involved in the process, I choose to keep my rates at a level that I've found is most conducive to attracting the type of clients I wish to spend time with.

I've found that when I've seen clients at 180-200/hr on the first visit, as a general rule, I felt less connected to the client, and more like a "quick fix" in the middle of his busy day. In general, I've also seen a decline in manners and hygiene, as well as clients trying to push the time over by 10,15, even 30 minutes without compensation. In contrast, clients who pay the higher donations generally tend to take more care with preparing for the session, being a gentleman, and being fully engaged in the meeting. Note that I'm not speaking in absolutes, but noting a general trend that persuaded me to eventually land on the rates I currently request.

In addition, I, too, have heard from multiple clients that they won't see a girl with rates below X amount because it reflects a greater possibility of her being a high-volume provider. I agree with that assumption, because the lower our rates sink, the more clients we will have to see to pay monthly expenses, and, in my case, the lower quality my service becomes. If I have the privilege of only seeing 1 gentleman per day, 3 days a week, I am happier, more eager, and perform much better than if I had to see 2 or 3 clients a day, every day, to make ends meet.

My regulars are well aware that they will be privy to specials and continuously discounted rates, but that's a privilege I afford to gentlemen who have been loyal clients for an extended amount of time. Some of these special rates are extremely low, but I can afford to offer them because of the elimination of screening time, the reduced risk factor, and the knowledge that their visits at rock-bottom prices will most likely average out with the full-price visits. I know many other ladies offer these types of "secret" specials, and yet we're still lambasted for having "high" donations.

There seems to be a very warped sense of how much providers actually make and what types of expenses they have, as well as a very generalized assumption that all providers have the ability to take a full-time or part-time job instead of or as a supplement to providing. In addition to the job market being incredibly tough right now, providers with children would have to pay for full-time childcare to work both jobs, whereas they may only have to pay for a few hours of childcare per week to provide. Providers in undergraduate or graduate school need time for class, studying, work and providing in addition to personal time, and it's probably more lucrative to see 2 clients per week and leave the remaining time for studying than it is to take a part-time job and be stressed about balancing work and school.

Yes, providers make more per hour than many of the hobbyists do. However, you can't assume that providers work 40, 30, 20 or even 10 hours a week. Right now, most of the seasoned providers seem to be averaging between 2-5 appointments per week, regardless of how much they charge. Lowering rates is not resulting in a sustained increase in business, so what's the incentive, especially when providers are being verbally railed by hobbyists and made to feel like they aren't worth any more than a certain dollar amount for the service they provide?

I think it's important to remember that no one demanded or told any provider (that I can remember) to lower their rates. A question was asked, and answers were provided. Even at that, it doesn't sound like it applies to you, at least I don't get the sense that you're 'starving'. Emotional, attentive, or whatever skills or traits you possess that allow you to survive or thrive in this economy may be something those starving providers mentioned in the original question lack.

Smarmy retorts aside, I don't think many, if any, think providing is easy. I sure as hell don't provide. As much as we say the economy is tough, I don't see guys offering their ass for $300 or even $500/hr.

Yet, as much as it may be an emotional connection for you to have a session, I don't think that's true for all providers. Again, every provider is different and each session is different. What each provider offers and can deliver is something that we hobbyists make a decision on if we want to experience or not.

If you're one of the 'starving' providers, you may be one of those ladies that, for many guys, the decision goes the other way. I'm going to keep repeating this - if you're not one of the providers having trouble making ends meet, this does not apply to you.

This is not about if we think you're worth your rates or not. You're all priceless - seriously, slavery is illegal.

Look at it from a guy's perspective. He may or may not be rich. Unless he's filthy rich, chances are, he has some kind of a hobby budget. It may be $500/month, $2000/month, or even $20,000/month. There is usually a number that a hobbyist will see as a reasonable limit for himself. I will venture to say that the guys with a 20k/month budget sees who he wants to see, and frankly, screw him because I want his budget. On the other end of the spectrum, the guy who has $500 to spend may indeed see a $$$ provider. Now he has $$ left for the month. He would still like to see the $$$ provider and may even think she's a great value at that rate. But. What he was expressing in that original thread is that he has $$ left, and he cannot afford to see the lady at $$$. He's also not suggesting crazy, drastic reduction. Your example of going from one session a day, three days a week to 2 or 3 clients a day, every day implies that there were suggestions to cut rates from $$$ to $ or even less per hour. Again, the suggestions were more along the lines of $$.50 to $.80-$$.20, not $$$ to $. Also, if you're a provider already paying your bills at $$$, $$$$, $$$$$, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, obviously, you're doing fine and don't want nor need to consider this. So when a hobbyist says, "I would see more providers at a lower rate", he is not saying that any or all of you are worth less than your rates (without naming specific providers and their rates, it would be hard to even get into that discussion). Instead, he's saying - "I literally have $500. I can have two sessions at $250 or one session at $300." At this point, you, as the provider make a decision - do I see this guys twice for $500 total or once for $300? Again, if you don't have trouble making ends meet, your decision will go the one way. If, however, you are having trouble making ends meet, the understanding that this guy is not valuing YOU any less, but saying that he values your company and is greedy enough for it to want two hours at what he can realistically afford to hobby with.

It may also be comfort level. You mentioned that you have a comfort level for rate setting and the clients you have. When the economy gets tough, the future is less certain, even for men who have good income. For a hobbyist who makes $50/hour, that may mean an adjustment of paying 5x his hourly wage rather than 6x his hourly wage.

As for guys who have told you that they wouldn't see a provider under xx/hr rate, guys tend to say things to impress a provider (not all, but some),and for every guy who says that, I can probably find 3 guys that would say otherwise (we'll start with the ones that put their 2 cents in on the original thread).

I'm curious, why do you offer these 'secret' specials?

I won't get into the expenses a provider can carry, as that is a rathole, and not core to the discussion. I also have less than first hand knowledge, so no point. Same thing with a provider's yearly income of 100k. It doesn't matter if that number is 200k or 500k, this discussion is about the ones that are struggling to keep food on the table and get bills paid.

Again, this is not a discussion of a provider's worth, I think the discussion about lower rates is more about what's possibly for the men and their budgets. At least from the hobbyist's perspective.

Also, there is no conspiracy that I'm aware of to try to drive the board a certain direction or to drive rates down. I'm certainly more active in the lounge than I am in Co-Ed because I value the information shared there over some of the posturing done by guys in Co-Ed to don polished protective gear. I've heard account of guys getting flak for sharing honest opinion from other guys, I can't tell you the number of times when I showed up to a session and felt like the reviews and the ads I've read misrepresented what was offered. This is the number one reason why I do not repeat with any given provider.

there are many things about the hobby that perplex me. Providers posting that they are 'bored', I believe that's code for they want sessions. Others post outright that they need sessions. Yet, they do not answer phones, return emails, texts, or smoke signals. Then IF a session is setup, it's obvious that it is one of the very last things in the world the provider would rather be doing. I'll give you a male perspective. We do not have the insight into what it takes to give our body and intimacy to a session, we have a limited (to our perspective) view of the session, just as providers have a limited perspective of the session. For many hobbyists, the first and formost thing demanded of us for a session is the rate, so that is the primary factor weighed against how much we want to spend that time with you. What that rate may represent is a half a day or a full day of work - at a wage that took us years of going to school and/or putting in hard work and sacrificing other things to get to that point in our career - in exchange for an hour of your time (what we get, not what you invest). So when the economy goes south, and we take pay cuts, or profit cuts, it only seems logical to us that RATES (not your worth) would reflect that.

When it comes down to it, I don't really have a horse in this race. I tend to get most of my P4P from venues other than sessions with providers (in the traditional sense), and I come here for variety. I'm just a little surprised by the vehemence of the replies when the subject of rates is approached, even when it was to answer a question directly asked of the hobbyists.

Sorry, I could have organized my thoughts better, it's been a long day of travel and work.

[Natalie Reign]

In addition to Carl's well-thought out post, also consider:

Marketing:
* Domain name purchasing & hosting
* Website maintenance (if required)
* Professional photographs (I'm guilty of skimping on this one due to not having a reliable and discrete photography contact in Austin, but I've got it handled now... and professional photos aren't cheap!)
* Board memberships (the ones I belong to range from $10-20/month)
* Advertising fees (anywhere from $0-$300/month per website)

Communication:
* Data card for mobile Internet (especially popular with traveling ladies)
* Required computer protection plans and/or maintenance fees

Travel & Transportation:
* Airline, rental car or gas/mileage/oil for travel to tour destinations
* Airline baggage fees for travel to tour destinations
* Hotel costs for tour cities (room, tax, parking)
* Gas/mileage/oil for outcalls

BCD:
* Massage lotion and/or oil
* Liquor/beer/wine for clients
* Toys and roleplay items
* Batteries

Miscellaneous:
* Gym membership
* Hair cut, color, styling
* Manicures & pedicures
* Waxing, laser hair removal, or countless fresh razor blades (What are those things made out of, anyways? Diamonds?! Geez.)
* Tanning
* Makeup
* Therapist (No, seriously. Therapist.)

And, last but not least... taxes. I set aside 35% off my income for taxes, and each quarter I pay a specific amount based on what I estimate I will owe at the end of the year.

Having your own separate incall really is akin to operating a complete second residence, even if you share with other providers.

[Rand Al'Thor]

Originally Posted by davidsmith0123

I'm new here, but if someone wants a discussion restarted or continued why not start a thread and re-ask or rephrase the original question. Is that against some rule? Do the moderaters prohibit this?

Would be somewhat pointless to open the same can of worms already closed, if it's only going to be closed again.

I am surprised by all the hostility in the previous thread, and in this thread. It is obvious that, all else the same, clients want lower prices and providers want higher prices. That's true in most if not all business. We ought to be able to say this, respectfully, without getting angry at each other. After all, don't we all come together (bad pun?) to do business. Why hurl insults? It's bad for business. I doubt if I will see providers who hurl insults at clients (and this probably reveals that I am not interested in certain activities), and I strongly suspect providers will feel the same toward clients hurling insults at them.

What you saw in that thread was a combination of a few things. Primarily, there's history between some of the posters, and provider rates is a subject akin to the Race Card - sensitive, painful and liable to set off emotional outburst because of threat to pride and self worth.

There was a lot of talk about provider income. Certainly the hourly rates are impressive, but how many hours? We can all do the math, and what seems to be a focal point income of $100K (mentioned several times in the original thread) requires about 20 sessions per 50 weeks at $100, 10 per 50 weeks at $200, and about 6.5 at $300. If $100K is really a focal point, do clients want to see a provider who sees 4 clients per working day, 5 days per week? Speaking for myself, I would pay more for a lower volume provider. I certainly don't want to be 4th, or 5th on the busy day!

Even with your calculations, $200 provider hits that number at 2/day@5 days/week or slightly above 2 per day@3days/week if she's $300. I don't know of many $100/hour providers on here.

Providers on the prior thread mentioned expenses, perhaps incall expenses, and certainly personal upkeep. I imagine this can easily exceed $1k per month. A provider on the original thread estimated $1.5K per month, and I have no reason to doubt her number. More pressure on the bottom line.

Many providers share incalls, and at 1 or 2 sessions a day and only 3 days per week, it shouldn't be hard to work out the logistics. Cut that in half by sharing with one other provider. The provider who estimated included mani, pedi, etc.. My sister, who is not a provider, spends what I would guess to be similar amount of money on said things. While I do have to wear clothes to work, I cannot expense my wardrobe, nor my haircuts.

After saying all this, I understand that Austin is not imune to the woes of the national economy. Many clients have seen declining income and/or a decline in hours worked. This leads to a reduced demand for many goods and services. Providers are not immune from this, as they see the decline in demand for their services. Providers face a tough choice when considering fees and hours worked. Some may exit the industry. I am sure this general decline in income is a difficult issue for both clients and providers, frustrating for all of us. There is no magic answer to the original post, where the original poster sought a solution that would keep local experienced provider income high by utilizing less the services of visitors or new entrants, a reallocation of monies spent by clients from new/out-of-town providers to experienced/in-town providers. I'll not question her goal, but I note that achieving it still leaves some provider somewhere with reduced income.

Sorry for the lengthy discourse. For the corny ending, I'll repeat the old mantra, 'make love not war.' That's what I'm for (with apologies to Pat Green).

This is a fickle business, fraught with hormones, emotions, money, drama, and whims. The answer probably lies somewhere between all the answers given in the closed thread - TCB, BCD, marketing, and pricing.

[Codybeast]

Originally Posted by davidsmith0123

I'm new here, but if someone wants a discussion restarted or continued why not start a thread and re-ask or rephrase the original question. Is that against some rule? Do the moderaters prohibit this?
.

That's exactly what I did (Or attempted to do) earlier this morning but with a bit more positive twist.

http://eccie.net/showthread.php?t=105436

Me thinks the majority is more interested in watching sparks fly based upon the limited responses and suggestions.


Welcome David to the boards.

[Sternomancer]

Originally Posted by Whispers

And Enjoy it I do!
Oh wait.... That's right.... I've never spent a minute with you other than meeting you at a social when you were calling yourself by a different name

Hmm. Interesting. I brought this behavior up before and she made it a point to let me know she never does this. Wow. That's really odd.