Socialism, the God That Failed - Again and Again and Again

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by bb1961

This debunks all of your garbage tiny...

https://youtu.be/T8Sf-Nmxkjo

As for Singapore and Hong Kong there is a huge difference it the population
in comparison to the US...you seem to have left that out of your discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_BXA4gyE2Q

I'm having a really tough time following your reasoning here. Your first link is a John Stossel interview. It has nothing to do with Singapore. Stossel is an admirer of health care in Singapore. See this tweet,

Singapore's population lives longer but spends 1/4 less on healthcare. Why? People pay for services themselves #ObamaScare

John Stossel 12:10 PM - 31 Oct 2013

https://twitter.com/johnstossel/stat...91265860648960

Stossel made a mistake by the way. Singapore doesn't spend 1/4 less, Singapore spends 3/4 less than we do.

In your second link, Sean Flynn is lauding the health care system in Singapore, non stop.

This is bizarre. It's like you're trying to prove my points.

As to your previous post, see red text below,

Originally Posted by bb1961

You continue with your nonsense...competition...WTF do you think free market Capitalism is!!
A socialist and private system running side-by-side...this must be where pig fly!!

In your link, Stossel said 7 out of every 8 dollars spent on health care in the USA is by government or insurance companies. Do you know how much your last colonoscopy or surgical procedure cost? Do you give any consideration to the price, as long as Medicare or your insurance company is footing the bill? As to the pigs flying part, having public and private options is common - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-tier_healthcare

You don't know anything about me. You are the one that thinks money grows on trees...free shit from obummercare is fucking up a healthcare system that is the best in the world.

You started this by lumping me in with AOC. You linked to a video of her where she was promoting Medicare for all and she was stumped when asked how she was going to pay for it. From your posts you believe everything will be hunky dory with our health care system if we just get rid of Obamacare. Well, if you do that, all is good and well. But how are you going to pay for Medicare and Medicaid in the long term without somehow reforming the health care system? The unfunded liability is north of 40 trillion. It looks like you and AOC both think money grows on trees, it's just a matter of degree.

The billionaires Saudis come here for their healthcare not to the countries you speak so highly of their healthcare.
If it were so great there then the Saudis would go there.

The innovations in healthcare in this country far exceed any other.
You should make your permanent residence in one the countries you have such admiration for their superior healthcare ...you'll live to be the oldest person ever!!

Singapore has maybe around $700 million a year in medical tourism (Saudis, etc. visiting for medical treatment) versus around $1.4 billion in the USA. Singapore's population is about 6 million and the US's is 300 million. Furthermore, a lot more people leave the U.S. seeking treatment in other countries, mainly because of our high health care costs, than come to the U.S. from other countries seeking treatment. We spend over 2X as much going to other countries to seek medical care as what foreigners spend here on medical tourism:

https://www.usitc.gov/publications/3...avel_final.pdf

Btw, when it comes to economic freedom, Singapore and Hong Kong rank higher than the USA. I'd love to emigrate to either if Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren becomes president, but it's hard to get in.

https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

[bb1961]

Originally Posted by Tiny

I'm having a really tough time following your reasoning here. Your first link is a John Stossel interview. It has nothing to do with Singapore. Stossel is an admirer of health care in Singapore. See this tweet,

Singapore's population lives longer but spends 1/4 less on healthcare. Why? People pay for services themselves #ObamaScare

John Stossel 12:10 PM - 31 Oct 2013

https://twitter.com/johnstossel/stat...91265860648960

Stossel made a mistake by the way. Singapore doesn't spend 1/4 less, Singapore spends 3/4 less than we do.

In your second link, Sean Flynn is lauding the health care system in Singapore, non stop.

This is bizarre. It's like you're trying to prove my points.

As to your previous post, see red text below,

The first link deals directly with your fallacy of healthcare and how not so great socialist healthcare is.

The second link is about the Singapore system and how it won't work here and you continue to spew your nonsense about the greatness of government involved healthcare.

Many if not all the posts of yours are all over the map in regards to something you know nothing but continue to copy and paste information about healthcare systems that cost taxpayers much more that it should cost...I understand why you divert...you must be a politician or lawyer...one in the same.
Like i said if other systems are so great and increase longevity
why the hell stay living in a country with second class healthcare.

[bb1961]

Originally Posted by Tiny

SpeedRacer, The problem with Obamacare is that if doubles down on a failed system. We're spending something like 17% of GDP on health costs in the USA, much more than any other developed countries, and still have an average life expectancy behind Costa Rica. Also the 3.8% investment tax that finances Obamacare reduces the capital available to grow the economy. Between Medicare, Medicaid and Obamacare, a large part of the electorate thinks there's nothing wrong with the system, because they're getting medical care for much less than what it actually costs.

Neither party is talking about solutions to this problem. Other countries have universal health care that costs a lot less and produces better outcomes, and we should copy them. Being a Libertarian Republican, I'd prefer introducing real competition to the system, so that hospitals, doctors and drug companies have to compete for business based on price. But admittedly even a bare bones socialized medical system run by people who know what they're doing existing side by side with optional private medical care could be better than what we have now.

Take about bizzarre...two paragraphs...two differing thoughts

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

When you take the time to learn and understand what socialism is then we can continue the discussion.

so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/

noun

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Is Obamacare "Socialized Medicine"?

Socialized Medicine

Socialized medicine in its strictest sense, is a single-payer government-run and -delivered system. In a socialized medicine model, the government provides all services from your doctors and providers to the hospitals and other facilities, and all payments for those services. Some looser translations of socialized medicine allow for private providers and facilities, but that practice is not usual; typically, private payment and independent for-profit providers are either discouraged or forbidden.

https://www.verywellhealth.com/is-un...dicine-3969754

Myth 3: Obamacare is socialized medicine, like in Canada or the United Kingdom.

Truth: Not really. In the UK, doctors are employees of the federal government. In Canada, the government pays most medical bills. That's similar to America's Medicare and Medicaid. The ACA does expand Medicaid to middle-income families, but most of the expansion is in the private insurance market.

Why do more than half (57 percent) of Americans think the ACA is socialized medicine? President Obama’s initial proposal included universal health care. That included Congress, which rejected his proposal. Ironically, Obamacare now forces Congress onto the private exchanges, just like everyone else. So, in that particular case, the ACA reduced socialized medicine.

https://www.thebalance.com/the-truth...macare-3306075

Your Definition of Socialism is a candy coated crock of shit version. The definition of Socialism realistically is, "Socialism essentially is a grand scale School Yard Bully who claims to be doing good for everybody on the playground" But every productive member of society knows Socialism is a criminal enterprise carried out by those state agencies that have a monopoly on force. " You Make it, they take it". You can't opt out of Socialism. Therefore Socialism is economic slavery.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

Your Definition of Socialism is a candy coated crock of shit version. The definition of Socialism realistically is, "Socialism essentially is a grand scale School Yard Bully who claims to be doing good for everybody on the playground" But every productive member of society knows Socialism is a criminal enterprise carried out by those state agencies that have a monopoly on force. " You Make it, they take it". You can't opt out of Socialism. Therefore Socialism is economic slavery.

Yes. And Obamacare is NOT socialism as stated by your definition.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by Tiny

SpeedRacer, The problem with Obamacare is that if doubles down on a failed system. We're spending something like 17% of GDP on health costs in the USA, much more than any other developed countries, and still have an average life expectancy behind Costa Rica. Also the 3.8% investment tax that finances Obamacare reduces the capital available to grow the economy. Between Medicare, Medicaid and Obamacare, a large part of the electorate thinks there's nothing wrong with the system, because they're getting medical care for much less than what it actually costs.

Neither party is talking about solutions to this problem. Other countries have universal health care that costs a lot less and produces better outcomes, and we should copy them. Being a Libertarian Republican, I'd prefer introducing real competition to the system, so that hospitals, doctors and drug companies have to compete for business based on price. But admittedly even a bare bones socialized medical system run by people who know what they're doing existing side by side with optional private medical care could be better than what we have now.

Then let's come up with a better solution if Obamacare is not working. Before I was eligible for medicare I worked for a company and had fantastic insurance at a low price. The major plus to me for Obamacare is the many millions who could not afford health insurance now have it. Yes, the taxpayers of this country are subsidizing this coverage. I most certainly do not mind part of my taxes going to those who are less fortunate than I am.

When it comes to competition in health care based on price, most people want superior medical care independent of cost for complex medical procedures. If I'm in need of a rather complex operation, I'm going to choose the doctor who has the best qualifications over one who is offering a bargain basement price.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by bb1961

As always you addressed NOTHING of my statement but the NIGHTMARE of obummercare as if the shit help anyone but the people who can't afford insurance in the first place.

The astronomical rates that many pay now and didn't before this ONE party throat shoving NIGHTMARE of obummercare you DON"T address that...I fucking wonder why??

You still haven't told us what the disastrous Republican plan is that you have stated over and over...and you won't tell us now...wonder why??

Why was there an insurance mandate to force insurance on people that didn't want it...maybe so that money could pay for those that couldn't afford it....do I hear socialized...DO TELL SPEED.
Thank god they got rid of that unconstitutional shit.

It's those on the left that go apoplectic at the thought obummercare going away...I wonder why SPEED...the people like myself that have always paid for their insurance don't seem to be concerned about this disastrous legislation disappearing.

Okay, here is what is wrong with the health care plan proposed by Trump and other Republicans in 2017:

"The bill (AHCA) would have repealed the individual mandate and the employer mandate, dramatically cut Medicaid spending and eligibility, eliminated tax credits for healthcare costs, abolished some taxes on high earners, and altered rules concerning pre-existing conditions and essential health benefits.

The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projected that the AHCA would have increased the number of uninsured people by 23 million over 10 years, but would have decreased the federal budget deficit by $119 billion over the same period. Polling consistently showed that the AHCA was deeply unpopular with the American populace during and after its evaluations in Congress. Business Insider stated that the AHCA was "the least popular major bill in decades", and major medical organizations, including the American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics, strongly condemned the bill and excoriated its supporters in Congress. AHCA's unpopularity may have contributed to Republican losses in the 2018 elections."

An estimated 14 million people would lose insurance coverage in 2018 under the new Republican healthcare plan, according to a budget analysis.

"The long-awaited Republican plan was assessed by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), a nonpartisan group of budget analysts and economists.

The CBO said the added number uninsured would rise to 24 million by 2026.

President Donald Trump, who backs the new plan, had pledged while campaigning that no-one would lose their insurance.

Now we see why the Trump administration spent the past week attempting to play down the importance of the CBO's scoring of the American Healthcare Act. The numbers are in, and the top-line increase in uninsured Americans in 2018 - more than 14 million next year - is staggering.

Conservatives will herald the long-term budget savings derived from the legislation as well as the reduced taxes. But the pain from the cuts to coverage and subsidies will be more immediate and focused on the poor and the elderly.

Moderates, particularly those up for re-election in 2018 in states that had expanded Medicaid coverage, may very well cite the CBO number as reason to run for the exits.

The House bill was already under fire from the right for enshrining what they saw as a new "welfare entitlement", so any attempts to lesson the blow of the changes will be difficult. The odds in favour of eventual passage are growing longer by the day.

The Republicans know they have to do something to fulfil their "repeal and replace" campaign promises, but finding a solution will take all the political skill the congressional leadership, and the Trump administration, can muster."



"The revised version of the Better Care Reconciliation Act (BCRA) maintains much of its original structure and intent. Like the House legislation, the Senate Republican bill introduced in June will produce major losses in insurance coverage that will mostly affect low- and moderate-income Americans, according to the CBO’s analysis of the bills. The centerpiece of the Senate bill is a series of major reductions in federal aid for poor Americans who rely on Medicaid and for consumers who currently qualify for federal subsidies to help them buy private health insurance through the Obamacare marketplace.

The CBO estimated that under the House bill, 23 million fewer people would have insurance over the next decade. The estimate is 22 million for the previous Senate version."

Trump needed this legislation to pass in order to fund his other proposals - build the wall, pass new tax legislation, pay for infrastructure improvements, etc., AND balance the budget via a huge decrease in medicaid payments. Once the repeal/replace of Obamacare did not happen, and with it the decrease in medicaid payments. the deficit ballooned.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

Yes. And Obamacare is NOT socialism as stated by your definition.

No, Obamacare is basically fraud.

[eccielover]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

No, Obamacare is basically fraud.

Obama basically said he felt it as the best he could do and as a stepping stone to governmental takeover of the healthcare industry or a more full socialist government system.

That his failing plan is being challenged from a legacy standpoint, just drives the left wild to this day.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by eccielover

Obama basically said he felt it as the best he could do and as a stepping stone to governmental takeover of the healthcare industry or a more full socialist government system.

That his failing plan is being challenged from a legacy standpoint, just drives the left wild to this day.

I agree.

[Randall Creed]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

Any discussion about the pros and cons of socialism are rendered moot because they fail to account for the one constant factor though out history. Human.nature

Sooner or later, it will rear it’s head and those that produce will tire of supporting those that do not.

Then the entities in charge will have to make the decision as to how to deal with those who get fed up with supporting the system.

The usual solution is “re education”’ the system of forced compliance. If that fails.........put them against the wall.

The average CEO makes the rough equivalent of $5,800 AN HOUR.

That's $47,000 a day. A day. One day of 'work'.

And that's just the average, not including bonuses and other perks that come with being the company grip-n-grinner.

Your average joe and jane, working 2-3 jobs just to house and feed themselves, probably make oh, $3-500 a week, give or take.

Our society has become comfortable with paying people for STATUS over actual IMPORTANCE.

Wealthy people, and even those in positions of authority, are giving managerial jobs to their kids...who don't know jack shit about being a leader. Their first jobs are being in charge of somebody.

I'm mentioning this because I've seen too often where 'kids' are appointed to positions over adults that have been in companies forever. This puts a lid on advancement for people that should be moving up.

My point here is, the system supports those already with the most money, and gives them MORE MONEY...money that they don't need.

Another layer to this, one you probably love to pretend to not be aware of, is that people are being paid a lot of money to do easy jobs.

When people have easy jobs that lets them make a lot of money, what are they going to do. They're going to sit on those jobs. Hell, why not be a career politician for 25-30 years, making a shitload of money, and never having to ACTUALLY work. Pick and choose who you surround yourself with...i.e. fellow dirtbag friends and family.

Let's keep making laws and rules that favor us, and keep the masses poor, unaware, and uneducated. Just makes it easier to stay status quo.

[Redhot1960]

[JRLawrence]

Originally Posted by themystic

Funny thing is most right wingers talk about socialism more that the handful of democrats who do. Fear Biden

That is because we call socialism what it is!

The Damndemocrates tell lies and hide the true meaning of what they really are. This crap has been accumulating for too long. It was our hero Trump that told us the it was time to flush the toilet, and he did.

Go ahead and cry as your go down the drain.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Redhot1960

Thats true, and if America ever becomes a completely Socialist country that will solve the immigration problem, lol.

[bb1961]

You're such a scholar SPEED...Obummercare not socialized medicine.
Lets see...
(1) A mandate that people buy insurance to offset the people who can't afford it...thanks to Trump and the republicans they did away with that unconstitutional mandate!!

(2) Pre-existing conditions aren't actuarials any longer...insurance companies have to find a way to offset the enormous cost of this burden....others paying the costs...AKA mandate.

(3) People being forced to buy high dollar plans that they have no need for...to prop up a failing system...thank God this nightmare is dying a slow death...not fast enough.

(4) My insurance has gone up 65% with a 10k deductible...essentially 14k out of pocket...BEFORE my actual insurance pays ANYTHING..as has MANY of the people who PAY for health insurance...excellent insurance...courtesy of Obummercare!!

(5) Being forced to buy insurance so it will subsidize others isn't a socialized based system...GOTCHA SPEED!!

Who shoved this down who's throat...your GOD'S SPEED...the DEMS...NOT ONE REPUBLICAN VOTED for and rightfully so...they knew what a cluster fuck it would turn out to be...you're UNaca that just needs to be adjusted.

Hopefully this terrible law will be ruled unconstitutional when it moves it way through the judicial system.

The problem with this socialized nightmare is that when you give something to someone for free it's a MF'er to undo it...in Socialism you eventually run out of other peoples money.