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latinbreeze · 02-10-2011, 11:44 AM

SJ. He can fight the thing in muni court without a lawyer. Hell, with the information he is getting here, he can research the law himself at the law library in the court house. It's enough direction to get him going. You have to admire the guy for wanting to take it up further. He can appeal to county without a lawyer. If the cop doesn't show, it could get dismissed. If the cop shows up at county, some of those DA's hate to mess with traffic violations and will offer a good deal there. He can choose to proceed or not proceed there.

Personally, when I have had a good month, I have taken some of this shit up with the courts for next to nothing. Yes, just on principal to fuck with the prosecutor or to fuck with a cop that I have had experience with. Is it worth it to me to do this on occasion? Sure, the plea offers get better when they know their opponent will make them work for their convictions and win on occasion. Yes, I have to make a living, but sometimes you have to take a stand as a lawyer. But, on the other hand, it does lead to referrals.

About a year ago, a judge in Collin County fucked up a case so bad that the criminal defense bar pitched in $ for the appeal. Every lawyer that could afford to give gave $100 , $200, even one gave $1000 toward the appeal, Two defense attorneys with appellate experience took the appeal on for costs. Getting the judge reversed on appeal was the only way he would follow the law and not screw the defendants the next time. It is costly for defendants and lawyers to take something like this on. But, you have to admire it.

ShysterJon · 02-10-2011, 12:02 PM

latinbreeze: tristan said he was going to hire a lawyer, not appear pro se. Frankly, I'd never advise even the most intelligent layperson to try a case in municipal court against the greenest baby prosecutor. The former chief judge of a municipal court in a large city in North Texas once told me of the hundreds of trial he'd conducted where a non-lawyer represented themself, not one had been acquitted.

Anybody who knows me is aware I believe in pro bono. I've represented dozens of providers and hobbyists for free when I thought they were getting screwed over. But trying tristan's ticket for free? Nah. Maybe my definition of rank injustice is narrower than yours.

latinbreeze · 02-10-2011, 12:17 PM

I avoid traffic tickets with a passion unless it's my own ticket, a friend or an existing client getting screwed over, or I see someone being treated terribly terribly wrong when I am down there and just offer my services. I suspect you don't mess with those much either because they are a hassle for little money unless you do volume business in tickets.

But, truth be told, in most big cities, when cases are set for jury trials, many of those cases wind up being dismissed because the cop doesn't show up. And, if he does show up, the prosecutor will offer a lower fine than would be paid if you just go to the window and pay up.

Tristan, I also would recommend you have a lawyer if you want to fight the case and go to trial. You don't know the rules of evidence to get your information in and keep some of what should not come in from them out. But, you can choose your own way. Fight it with a lawyer is best. Find one that loves the fight. Or, set it for trial and gamble that the cop doesn't show up with no real intention of going through with a trial.

ShysterJon · 02-10-2011, 12:25 PM

All that I'd add to what latinbreeze wrote is if a person sets a ticket for trial and the cop who issued the citation DOES show up, you can still plead no contest, get a deferred, and pay a small fine.

tristan · 02-10-2011, 02:33 PM

Wow! Thanks for all the great responses to my thread. You all have provided great information. First off let me say that when I posted this thread I was just pissed off. Not because I got the citation, but because I was pissed about the way the officer treated me. Then to watch him stop other driver’s for what looked like the the same violation. I watched him stop 5 cars in 15 minutes. He just came across as a hard nosed, arrogant, cocky, “my sh*t don’t stink”, SOB. I am and always have been extremely respectful of police officers. And I usually get that respect back in return. Hell it is what has always got me off with just a warning for other (real traffic violations) stops. I know most of the officers in my community and I understand they’re trained to “control” situations. But this guy must have missed the training for how to do that properly. As I said earlier, I always treat people respectfully. And I just expected it from him too.

Now I was originally going to just pay my fine and let it go. Not even worried about it affecting my insurance cost, because it won’t. The fine will be $$. Nothing to worry about. Although I would have rather put that to the hobby fund. Then I started to research this a bit. Sarcasto, thanks for that link to the Mahaffey case. Situation was a bit different, but it brought up good points. Footnote (32) in that document I believe more closely relates to my situation. That link lead me to the Arraignment Documents for the Municipal Court that I must go to. No surprise here, but the Arraignments that took place in January where that cop was involved were ALL for Failed to Signal Turn violations. Between 4 Arraignment Docs that I found he wrote 30-40 citations for same violation. Just seems like a lot to me.

Latinbreeze and ShysterJon you both have good points. Just for kicks I called a popular local traffic lawyer today. Probably won’t hire him because his fee is more than the fine but he did offer some advice. I asked him if he’s having a good month because latinbreeze would do it pro bono just to piss off the cop.

Anyways, this is what I am going to do…I did not know I could do this, but I understand I can go to Municipal Court anytime and meet with a prosecutor first and explain my situation. I will take her my pics, my video, documented cases that seem to favor my argument, a copy of my good driving record, etc and present them to her/him. Maybe I will get lucky and she will drop it all together. Maybe reduced fine. If I don’t like what she has to say I can just leave pay my fine, take a safety course to get the violation removed from my record (and get a discount on my insurance), and move on. All it will take is a short amount of my time. Have never gone through that process before, but it actually sounds fun. Unless I find an lawyer that will do this for at least less than my fine it is not worth fighting it. If it works to my favor, great.

I have talked to several LE buddies that work for that same department and that same area. They laughed about it and said they would have never made that stop. They see it all the time at that same turn and would rather focus on the more dangerous violations, because there really is no danger that could be caused by not utilizing the turn signal at that turn lane. They claim if they wanted to, just as this cop did, is sit there are write citations for that violation all day long. I will let you know how it works out whenever I take the time to go talk to the prosecutor.

ShysterJon · 02-10-2011, 05:09 PM

tristan: If you decide to plead out the case, and unless you have an awful driving record, they'll probably offer you a brief deferred probation and a reduced fine. Unless you're 25-years-old or younger, it's not mandatory that you take a driver safety course to get a deferred. The DSC is six hours, by the way.

My reading of footnote 32 in Mahaffey is that courts that have considered the issue have ruled that a person who's in a one-way turn only lane must signal their turn. latinbreeze argued that perhaps the statute at issue didn't apply because you were on a private road in a shopping center, not a public road. But you committed the violation on both a private road and a public road as you turned from one onto another. There's probably not a written opinion on point on the issue, but there are many opinions involving DWI cases in which the court deemed a road located on private property to be a public road because of easy access between the two roads.

But the main topic I want to write about is "drop-in" court. It's great that your city has a system where a citizen with a ticket can go to the courthouse and speak informally with a prosecutor before his or her formal court date. But I don't want anyone who read your post to assume that the city where they live has the same kind of set-up, because most don't.

Like latinbreeze suspected, I don't regularly practice in municipal courts, but I will handle a case in a city court under special circumstances. In North Texas, the only city I know of that has what's called an "off-docket court" is Dallas, and Dallas only started the program within the last year. Other cities in the area, including Garland, Richardson, Euless, Carrollton, and especially Arlington, have an incredibly inefficient, antiquated system where a defendant shows up on their court date, along with dozens or even hundreds of others, and the prosecutor or prosecutors talk to the defendants one at a time. So in those cities, you'll get a chance to "plead your case" to a prosecutor or even a judge, but it may take you hours to get your chance at bat. None of those cities have an off-docket court that I'm aware of.

The polar opposite of tristan's home city and Dallas is Plano, where if you don't have a formal court appearance at the time you come to the courthouse you're simply not welcome. I've tried to drop in and speak with a judge or a prosecutor when court was in session but my case wasn't on the docket, and each time some thug with a gun and a badge physically prevented me from entering the courtroom. Attempting to educate Barney Fife on the open courts provision of the Texas Constitution did no good.

latinbreeze · 02-10-2011, 09:30 PM

Ahhhh, the Plano Supreme Court. You have to be formal and careful there. They think they are as important as the Court of Criminal Appeals, which the U.S. Supreme court has scolded in several cases for their ridiculous rulings.

Anyway, State v. Ballman, 157 SW3d 65, the court found that No traffic violation was committed for not using a turn signal from a private parking lot onto a public street.

Wish I could find that Texarkana case. The defendant made two left turns from designated left turn lanes without signaling either time. The police followed him several blocks after those turns before deciding to stop him. The judge found no violation and found the stop was bad. Case was upheld by the appeals court and the Ct of Criminal Appeals refused to hear it. Was set to cite to that one in a case in Dallas, but the prosecutor offered a sweet deal.

Used to be a section in the transportation code that said something like all the codes were to be taken as needed for safety. I don't remember exact wording, but I don't think it's in there anymore. Used that section to argue that cops shouldn't have stopped a guy based on his not signaling for 100 feet before the turn. Truthfully, he didn't signal until he was 20 feet before the turn, BUT he was stopped at a signal for a minute or two when he started to signal. The argument was that the requirement to signal 100 feet before was to give sufficient time/notice to following cars. The amount of time cars behind him at the light saw the his turn signal was more than adequate even though he realized he needed to turn 20 feet before the turn. We won.

Sarcastro · 02-11-2011, 09:21 AM

So was the lane from which Tristan made his turn a private driveway? The duty to signal only applies when on a highway. See §542.001 of the transportation code. A privately maintained driveway is not a highway. §541.302(5). See also Ballman, as cited by latinbreeze.

Billy_Saul · 02-11-2011, 07:33 PM

There was a case where a carload of UT football players turned left from a left turn lane without signaling and received a ticket from College Station police. After Police stopped the car they found some pot. This case was taken to a higher court that overturned the original ruling and stated that there was no other option but to turn left from their lane position and therefore no signal of intent was necessary. Thus no probable cause to stop them in the first place, everything thrown out.. Don't ask me how I remember this but I always think of it when I am driving in the same situation. Too lazy to look it up but I'd fight the ticket because there is legal precedent.

sky_wire · 02-12-2011, 07:28 AM

Alas, I took a quick look hoping to find that case. One thing to note: there is some dispute among the different districts in Texas as to whether a turn signal is requried in a turn only lane. The case I'm thinking about to show a turn signal was not required is very narrow, and I simply don't remember anything else about it. Sorry. Here's a quote from a case that says a turn signal "is" requried.

****************************** *****

The plain language of the statute requires the driver to signal for a turn. It does not include exceptions for those situations in which there is only one direction to turn. We cannot say that requiring the use of a turn signal while entering a turn-only lane and making the turn would lead to absurd results. See Williams v. State, No. 05-02-00314-CR, 2002 Tex. App. LEXIS 8077, 2002 WL 31521373, at *2 (Tex. App.--Dallas Nov. 14, 2002, no pet.) (holding Section 545.105 requires driver use turn signal in turn-only lane). It has been held that Section 545.104 provides a "bright-line rule by which drivers of motor vehicle and police officers charged with enforcing the laws [**7] may operate. If a turn is made from one street onto another, a signal is required." Id. (citing Krug v. State, 86 S.W.3d 764, 2002 WL 1981399, at *3 (Tex. App.--El Paso 2002, no pet.)) (Section 545.104 applies anytime turn made and not limited to situations in which driver turns at intersections or turning around near curve or grade.). n1

Wehring v. State, 276 S.W.3d 666, 670 (Tex. App. Texarkana 2008)

Sarcastro · 02-12-2011, 08:32 AM

I found the following post on a Baylor Fans forum quoting an AP article dated July 10, 2003:

Quote:

Drug charges against four University of Texas football players have been dropped because officers performed an illegal traffic stop before searching their vehicle, Madison County District Attorney Bill Bennett said Thursday.

The players did not break traffic laws by leaving Interstate 45 without signaling, so officers with the Brazos Valley Narcotics Task Force had no grounds to pull them over or conduct the search that uncovered marijuana in the vehicle, Bennett said. Defensive tackle Larry Dibbles was driving the sport utility vehicle that officers pulled over near Madisonville. Running back Selvin Young, linebacker Aaron Harris and defensive back Edorian McCullough were passengers. All four players were sophomores.

Exiting a freeway when one doesn't need to change lanes isn't a "turn" that requires a signal. Trahan v. State, 16 S.W.3d 146, 147 (Tex. App.—Beaumont 2000, no pet.)

Entire Baylor Fans post here. I couldn't find the story in the AP archives.

sky_wire · 02-13-2011, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarcastro

I found the following post on a Baylor Fans forum quoting an AP article dated July 10, 2003:

Exiting a freeway when one doesn't need to change lanes isn't a "turn" that requires a signal. Trahan v. State, 16 S.W.3d 146, 147 (Tex. App.—Beaumont 2000, no pet.)

Entire Baylor Fans post here. I couldn't find the story in the AP archives.

That's the case I was thinking of!

VitaMan · 02-13-2011, 09:53 AM

I don't personally see the need to put on my turn signal in a turn only lane - but
then again, you could have just wandered into this lane, so other drivers can't be
sure of your real intent unless you put your blinker on - so that's a point for needing
it to be turned on.

Maybe same for "right turn" okay when red light is on ?

I respect and admire police for the most part. But there are definite situations where
they just set up to give out as many tickets as possible within a short period. There
was one area with a few stop signs, and they were giving out many tickets everyday
for about 10 days - then they left.

Note for court and lawyers, it used to be very easy to file bankruptcy papers just
for the filing fee of $ 100, lawyers would charge $ 1500 or more just to fill out one
piece of paper and file it on clients behalf. Nowadays, you need to pass a means
test to file bankruptcy, so not quite as straightforward as it used to be.

texan361 · 02-14-2011, 03:31 PM

There is a case that talks about not using turn signals within 100 feet of a turn. Caselaw says if you are at a traffic light and decide to turn right and put on your signal while stopped at the light, then you have not turned on your turn signal 100 feet before the turn and therefore have committed a violation. Other case law says that it can't be against the law if you don't signal but you have no other choice but to turn, i.e you drive to a "T" in the road at a stop sign. You can only go left or right but you have not used your turn signal. What do you do? Backing up is against the law and turning without signaling your turn signal 100 feet before the turn is against the law as well. If this is situation you are in, then you might be on solid ground BUT go pay the ticket, it will save you money in the long run.

ShysterJon · 02-14-2011, 03:43 PM

My impressions of this thread are:

1. As shown above, it's certainly an open question whether a judge or jury would convict tristan under the facts presented, and the uncertainty regarding the law should make for a good-natured debate with the young city prosecutor. But why risk a conviction if the prosecutor offers a deferred?

2. This thread proves that guys can write here on topics other than who's on their "to do" list, which provider has the biggest tits, and how fat a girl has to be to be BBW.