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Old 04-22-2023, 11:59 PM   #1
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Default The F-35 is becoming the most popular fighter jet among NATO militaries — with one 'baffling' exception

The F-35 is becoming the most popular fighter jet among NATO militaries — with one 'baffling' exception

https://www.yahoo.com/news/f-35-beco...220900609.html


Michael Peck
Thu, April 20, 2023 at 5:09 PM CDT



Turkey takes delivery of its first F-35 at a ceremony in Texas in June 2018.Atilgan Ozdil/Anadolu Agency/Getty Images
  • Romania is the latest NATO member to say it will buy the F-35 stealth fighter jet.
  • More alliance members are buying F-35s, but one of NATO's biggest militaries, Turkey, can't.
  • Turkey is barred from the program because it elected to buy a Russian-made air-defense system.
Here's a sign that the world has changed since the Cold War: A former Warsaw Pact nation is buying US stealth fighters and the country with the second-largest army in NATO is buying Russian anti-aircraft missiles.


Fifty years ago, the notion that Romania would purchase the latest US-made fighter jet would have laughable in Washington and might have provoked Moscow into sending tanks into the streets of Bucharest.


And who could have imagined in 1973 that Turkey would choose advanced Russian surface-to-air missiles over a chance to buy that US jet, when Turks and Russians fought a dozen wars between the 16th and 20th centuries?


"It still remains remarkable to me that Romania will now operate the F-35, but Turkey will not," Aaron Stein, chief content officer at defense news website War on the Rocks, tweeted on April 11. "The S-400 purchase remains inexplicable. Just baffling beyond words."

Romanian air force MiG-21 jets during an air show in Romania in July 2017.US Air Force/Staff Sgt. Jonathan Snyder


Romania's announcement in early April that it would purchase the F-35 would have shocked Nixon and Brezhnev, but it is hardly a surprise today. Though a Soviet satellite state, Romania pursued a remarkably independent foreign policy from the 1960s until the collapse of the Soviet Union, before joining NATO in 2004.


Like other European countries with long memories of Russian hegemony and vivid fears that Ukraine won't be Vladimir Putin's last victim, Romania is looking for advanced weapons such as the F-35.


While Romania has yet to specify how many F-35s it will buy or when it will receive them, procuring an aircraft that at least a dozen other NATO countries are buying or will likely buy is a logical move. At the least, it demonstrates that the former Warsaw Pact member is now solidly in the Western bloc.


To some in the West, Turkey's decision to choose the S-400 over the F-35 just does not compute. As one of the original partners in the US-led F-35 program, Turkey should have been among the first to get the cutting-edge stealth fighter.


But Ankara was suspended from the program because Washington couldn't accept a scenario where Turkey operated both the F-35 and Russian missiles that are designed to shoot down the F-35.



Turkey's S-400 air-defense system during testing at an air base in Ankara in November 2019.Getty Images


"It remains baffling to me that Ankara chose an air defense system over the F-35," Stein, a senior fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute, said in a follow-up tweet.
Yet Turkey believes it is capable of operating both systems without jeopardizing F-35 secrets. Ankara still wants the planes, or at least the $1.4 billion it contributed to the program.


"Either they will give us our planes or they will give us the money," Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan vowed in 2021.
The F-35/S-400 controversy illustrates Turkey's position as the odd man in NATO since it joined in 1952. During the Cold War, Turkey's strategic position at the eastern end of the Mediterranean, its ability to bottle up the Soviet Union's Black Sea Fleet, and its large military combined to make it NATO's southeastern anchor.


Yet as the name suggests, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization is primarily a European and North American alliance. Most of Turkey is geographically in Asia, with just 3% of its territory – including much of Istanbul – on the European side of the Bosporus Strait.



Putin and Erdogan inspect a Russian Su-57 fighter jet at the MAKS air show in Russia in August 2019.Mikhail Svetlov/Getty Images


In an alliance mostly composed of democracies, Turkey had three military coups between 1960 and 1980 — and what appeared to be an attempted coup in 2016. (Thwarting future coups may be a reason Erdogan wants a weapon that can shoot down Western-made jets.)


While already member of what is essentially a European military alliance, Turkey's prospects of joining the European Union still seem dim, despite lobbying hard since 2005. Nonetheless, NATO still needs Turkey. Ankara has one of the alliance's largest militaries and is a counterweight to Russia in the Mediterranean, Balkans, Caucasus, and Central Asia.


While the US is blocking Turkey from the F-35 program, Washington just announced a $259 million deal to upgrade Turkey's F-16 fighters, despite objections from US lawmakers. And Turkey's vote is still needed for Sweden to join NATO.


Polls show that the majority of Turks still want to join the EU. Some influential Turks say the country doesn't really need the S-400 when it can manufacture its own anti-aircraft missiles. And while Erdogan — who now faces a tough reelection campaign — may feel a need to stand firm on the F-35 issue, that doesn't mean warm ties between Turkey and Russia will become a lasting romance.


Michael Peck is a defense writer whose work has appeared in Forbes, Defense News, Foreign Policy magazine, and other publications. He holds a master's in political science. Follow him on Twitter and LinkedIn.

Read the original article on Business Insider
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Old 04-23-2023, 12:36 PM   #2
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What's baffling about the exception?

Did you read and interpret your link?
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Old 04-23-2023, 01:23 PM   #3
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What's baffling about the exception?

Did you read and interpret your link?
+1
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Old 04-23-2023, 05:06 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Precious_b View Post
What's baffling about the exception?

Did you read and interpret your link?

Did YOU read it?

The word "baffling" is part of the original headline chosen by Business Insider.

And the story explains exactly what is "baffling" about Turkey's exception - nobody can figure out why Erdogan was stupid enough to purchase Russia's flawed S-400 air defense system despite NATO warnings it would force them to cancel deliveries of the F-35 jet.
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Old 04-23-2023, 06:09 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Precious_b View Post
What's baffling about the exception?

Did you read and interpret your link?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManSlut View Post
+1
Quote:
Originally Posted by lustylad View Post
Did YOU read it?

The word "baffling" is part of the original headline chosen by Business Insider.

And the story explains exactly what is "baffling" about Turkey's exception - nobody can figure out why Erdogan was stupid enough to purchase Russia's flawed S-400 air defense system despite NATO warnings it would force them to cancel deliveries of the F-35 jet.

explained by someone who did read it and gets Turkey's oddball outlier NATO membership. the only real reason Turkey is in NATO is because they can block Russia's access to the Mediterranean. and at the time, they were close enough to the former USSR for a great missile base. you may know of it as the Cuban Missile crisis.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

In 1961, the US government put Jupiter nuclear missiles in Italy and Turkey. It had trained a force of Cuban exiles which the CIA led in an attempt to invade Cuba and overthrow the Cuban government. Starting in November of that year the US government engaged in a campaign of terrorism and sabotage in Cuba, referred to as the Cuban Project, which continued throughout the first half of the 1960s. The Soviet administration was concerned about a Cuban drift towards China, with which the Soviets had an increasingly fractious relationship. In response to these factors, Soviet First Secretary, Nikita Khrushchev, agreed with the Cuban Prime Minister, Fidel Castro, to place nuclear missiles on the island of Cuba to deter a future invasion. An agreement was reached during a secret meeting between Khrushchev and Castro in July 1962, and construction of a number of missile launch facilities started later that summer.

Turkey has always played both sides of the game. they still are. they are blocking Sweden into NATO because they think Sweden is harboring what it considers pro-Kurdish terrorists, including members of the PKK militant group, which Sweden denies.
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Old 04-24-2023, 10:17 PM   #6
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Did YOU read it?

The word "baffling" is part of the original headline chosen by Business Insider.

And the story explains exactly what is "baffling" about Turkey's exception - nobody can figure out why Erdogan was stupid enough to purchase Russia's flawed S-400 air defense system despite NATO warnings it would force them to cancel deliveries of the F-35 jet.
Yes, I saw the word in the headline.

As the next post will show, it was not baffling why.
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Old 04-24-2023, 10:20 PM   #7
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...
Turkey has always played both sides of the game. they still are. they are blocking Sweden into NATO because they think Sweden is harboring what it considers pro-Kurdish terrorists, including members of the PKK militant group, which Sweden denies.
And to be even clearer, why would USA allow them to have advanced fighters when they also have access to advance weapons from the other side to counter said fighters.

Don't think the ruskies advisors/trainers would want to take a peak so as to make a better mouse trap?
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Old 04-24-2023, 10:31 PM   #8
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And to be even clearer, why would USA allow them to have advanced fighters when they also have access to advance weapons from the other side to counter said fighters.

Don't think the ruskies advisors/trainers would want to take a peak so as to make a better mouse trap?

Turkey helped develop the F-35. but you knew that, right?


Turkey doesn't have all the goods, just the pieces they were contracted as a NATO ally to make. which until they decided to suck the Putin cock gave them an inside edge to get the F-35. now they get shit but never fear Biden is here! He'll give them back their 1.5 billion dollars and you'll pay for it. brilliant!
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Old 04-25-2023, 07:39 PM   #9
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Turkey helped develop the F-35. but you knew that, right?


Turkey doesn't have all the goods, just the pieces they were contracted as a NATO ally to make. which until they decided to suck the Putin cock gave them an inside edge to get the F-35. now they get shit but never fear Biden is here! He'll give them back their 1.5 billion dollars and you'll pay for it. brilliant!
And what specific part of the development did they have key input?

Bet it wasn't with what I stated.
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Old 04-25-2023, 07:47 PM   #10
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And what specific part of the development did they have key input?

Bet it wasn't with what I stated.

this


Turkey officially kicked out of F-35 program, costing US half a billion dollars

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019...-f-35-program/


WASHINGTON — The U.S. has removed Turkey from the F-35 joint strike fighter program, and Turkey will lose its production work on the jet by March 2020, following its acceptance of the S-400 Russian-made air defense system last Friday.


However, a top Pentagon official would not close the door on Turkey rejoining the program in some form, should it reverse the decision to buy the S-400.


The White House issued a statement Wednesday confirming the move, which Washington had threatened for months.


“Turkey’s decision to purchase Russian S-400 air defense systems renders its continued involvement with the F-35 impossible,” the White House statement read. “The F-35 cannot coexist with a Russian intelligence collection platform that will be used to learn about its advanced capabilities.”


“Turkey has been a longstanding and trusted partner and NATO Ally for over 65 years, but accepting the S-400 undermines the commitments all NATO Allies made to each other to move away from Russian systems," the statement continued.


Shortly after the statement was released, the Pentagon held a rare on-camera press conference to explain the process moving forward, with Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition Ellen Lord and Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Policy David Trachtenberg.
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Old 04-25-2023, 08:09 PM   #11
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And what specific part of the development did they have key input?

Bet it wasn't with what I stated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid View Post
this

blah blah blah blah blah
Just quote the part where I asked for the specific design spec I asked for.

And i'll restate that it probably wasn't the part that interested the ruskies but their advisors would shure love to have a looksie.
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Old 04-25-2023, 08:14 PM   #12
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Just quote the part where I asked for the specific design spec I asked for.

And i'll restate that it probably wasn't the part that interested the ruskies but their advisors would shure love to have a looksie.

okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid View Post
this


Turkey officially kicked out of F-35 program, costing US half a billion dollars

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019...-f-35-program/


WASHINGTON — The U.S. has removed Turkey from the F-35 joint strike fighter program, and Turkey will lose its production work on the jet by March 2020, following its acceptance of the S-400 Russian-made air defense system last Friday.


However, a top Pentagon official would not close the door on Turkey rejoining the program in some form, should it reverse the decision to buy the S-400.


The White House issued a statement Wednesday confirming the move, which Washington had threatened for months.


“Turkey’s decision to purchase Russian S-400 air defense systems renders its continued involvement with the F-35 impossible,” the White House statement read. “The F-35 cannot coexist with a Russian intelligence collection platform that will be used to learn about its advanced capabilities.”


“Turkey has been a longstanding and trusted partner and NATO Ally for over 65 years, but accepting the S-400 undermines the commitments all NATO Allies made to each other to move away from Russian systems," the statement continued.


Shortly after the statement was released, the Pentagon held a rare on-camera press conference to explain the process moving forward, with Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition Ellen Lord and Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Policy David Trachtenberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockhe...5_Lightning_II


The aircraft descends from the Lockheed Martin X-35, which in 2001 beat the Boeing X-32 to win the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program. Its development is principally funded by the United States, with additional funding from program partner countries from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and close U.S. allies, including the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, Italy, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, and formerly Turkey.[5][6][7
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Old 04-25-2023, 08:18 PM   #13
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Again you don't state what the turks contributed to the program.

And your posting tell why I implied it was not baffling.
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Old 04-25-2023, 08:38 PM   #14
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Again you don't state what the turks contributed to the program.

And your posting tell why I implied it was not baffling.

don't argue for the sake of arguing. not a good look....


Turkey

In late 2017 Turkish and Russian officials signed a US$2.5 billion agreement for delivery of the S-400 air defense system to Turkey.[124][125] The US Secretary of State raised concerns over the deal,[126] which were rebuffed by President Erdogan and other Turkish officials, citing the US refusal to sell the upgraded MIM-104 Patriot to Turkey. Turkey received its first installment of the Russian S-400 missile defense system on 12 July 2019.[127] On 17 July 2019, Turkey was suspended from the F-35 program, the US stating "F-35 cannot coexist with a Russian intelligence collection platform that will be used to learn about its advanced capabilities"[128] and on December 14, 2020, the US imposed CAATSA sanctions on Turkey.[129] As of 2020, 4 batteries consisting of 36 fire units, and 192+ missiles were delivered to Turkey.[130]



Turkey has tested the S-400 air defense system against drones and F-16 fighter jets at low altitudes. According to Turkish media, the Turkish military has identified some deficiencies against a slow-moving object at low altitude.[131][1
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Old 04-26-2023, 08:16 PM   #15
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don't argue for the sake of arguing. ...
There are only four people that have posted on this thread.
One using the word "baffling."

My response which is explained below, and it should have been apparent if the link you supplied went into enough detail about such.

Another that agrees with me.

One questioning if I read the article. No. I already knew about Turkey, their choice for defensive ordinance, the reason at the time, and USA response.

This is old news to me. I can't remember where I read/heard it in the past but it was long enough to where I can't reference it.

Than you pulling the usual plays from your book.

I'll leave it at that. You have responded enough to show, to a person that reads your post that fill in enough.

Two that know and two that make can't see it and have to say "argue."
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