Safest Way To Proceed

[eyefo]

Hi

I tried to get this topic going at TER but no one seemed interested, but I think its very important.

There are incredibly risky ways to hobby, e.g. pick up SW's in bad parts of town at midnight, and much less risky ways.

After a good deal of research, this is what I see as being the least risky way
of hobbying for myself:

ONLY use well reviewed providers with a good deal of time in the business. ONLY use P411 as the "clearing house" for this activity. And among these providers use those who do little to no advertising outside of P411. Then stick with a handful of these providers and leave it at that.

I know this isn't for everyone, but this works for me, using the same "good" few over and over within confines of P411 and leaving it at that.

How would those of you with hobby experience rate this "under the radar" approach in terms of "risk".

And do you have any idea of how to improve on it?

[guest043013-2]

Most of us d not want to publish our screening methods for providers in order to not give LE any ideas. Your approach should work, the risk is always there that a lady gets busted, LE pressures her into running a sting operation, and you are the first casualty of said sting.

There are no guarantees. Play the game at the level you feel safe at. Use all of the resources at your disposal to keep safe.

If you smell a skunk, run like hell.

[ShysterJon]

As a criminal defense lawyer who's represented hundreds of hobbyists and providers, and as a former, long-time hobbyist, my perspective is not so much on what methods avoid risk as what methods lead to detection and arrest. With that in mind, the methods eyefo describes are relatively safe.

[eyefo]

Thanks, Tigercat.

For someone new to this, it is VERY hard to put matters in perspective.

From reading these legal matter posts, it sounds like hobbyists are always at significant risk of being caught thus taking their personal lives in their hands.

It sometimes makes hobbying sound like a suicide endeavor.

But surely this can't be true, or so many would not do it.

After much thinking, I now understand that the best policy is to never talk about sex.
(until BCD with a trusted provider)

And most certainly NEVER talk about sex and money.

And if you were caught up in a sting or confronted by LE, I fully agree with and understand STFU! I watched the very informative video by the law professor and the cop, who completely agree that talking to the police is ALWAYS a bad idea.

I found this from ShysterJon most illuminating -- at least for me since I live in Ft Worth/Tarrant County.

"I've found that the one common denominator in all busts of johns in undercover LE stings in the DFW area is either the john or the undercover "hooker" (or real hooker cooperating with LE) mentioned a particular sex act. No matter where he is, if a john doesn't mention a particular sex act, his chance of getting arrested in this area is very small, in my opinion. If the girl mentions a sex act, the hobbyist should skedaddle pronto. It's very unlikely that a hobbyist will get arrested for just BEING at a provider's incall, an AMP, a SC, on Harry Hines, etc. The cops think they need more than mere physical presence -- i.e., the discussion of a sex act -- to file a case.

With that being said, regarding the relationship of location to risk, I'd say nearly all the busts of hobbyists I've heard of involved undercover female officers posing as streetwalkers in areas with political concerns, like bad commercial areas next to residential neighborhoods and the neighbors complain to the cops or a city council member, or around sports stadiums. I've never heard of one case of a local law enforcement agency renting a hotel room, advertising, then arresting a hobbyist when he shows up at the room, although it's probably happened. Times are tight and LE agencies just don't have the budgets to organize such elaborate stings. However, LE commonly attempts to send undercover male cops to incalls and into stationary prostitution businesses, like AMPS, "massage parlors," some strip clubs, etc. When girls who work at a stationary business are busted, or when LE even shuts a place down, LE puts pressure on girls to give evidence against the owners and managers. Cops want to catch the big fish, not the little fish. LE tends to leave the patrons of stationary businesses alone (other than maybe parking outside them to try to scare guys off). Bear in mind the cases tend to be made by a male UC cop going into the business and interacting with a girl. Customers aren't involved in that equation."

So if LE isn't really after small-fish hobbyists in the first place, and you stay away from the waters where LE casts their nets, this seems like a huge positive.

Add to that the other precautions I've mentioned, and maybe you start to approach the odds of being struck by lightning.

Comments?

[guest043013-2]

I think providers are actually at a higher risk than johns of being busted.

That said, think of hobbying as playing Russian Roullette. Gun has many more chambers than your basic 6-shooter, maybe a few hundred. A few more bullets are loaded. You have a bullet for LE, a bullet from your family, a bullet from your employer, a bullet from the CDC (STDS), maybe a few others.

You have to decide the risk versus benefits rewards and decide if YOU want to take the risks. When you ask someone else his opinion, you have just given up your choice in the matter.

Lightning will probably strike me dead at my keyboard, but to paraphrase a Christian saying in a negative manner, this hobby is not a field where you ask:

WHAT WOULD LOGAN DO?

[eyefo]

Hi SJ

So glad you chimed in here. I was actually thinking of trying to set up an appointment with you (in your professional capacity) to customize a relatively safe method of operation, and benefit from your long experience with regards to "what to do, not to do"
and a general tutorial/lecture concering this hobbying endeavor.

I'm 62, married, and don't plan on being "wild" by any stretch, and of course discretion and safety are paramount.

Please let me know if and how you'd be willing to schedule me for an hour or so of your time. And if you don't care to, perhaps you have a colleague here in Fort Worth to whom you could refer me.

[ShysterJon]

Originally Posted by tigercat

I think providers are actually at a higher risk than johns of being busted.

That may be so in North Texas, but the ramifications for the arrested hobbyist are usually more severe than for the arrested provider. For example, in Dallas County, the D.A. will offer a memo agreement to a provider charged with prostitution if she doesn't have any prior contact with LE. If she pays $620, does some community service, and takes a life-skills class (aka 'Hooker School'), the D.A. will ask the judge to dismiss the case and all the records can be expunged. But the Dallas D.A. hardly ever offers a memo agreement to a first-offender hobbyist. The hobbyist will often have to serve a deferred but supervised probation, meaning the records can never be expunged (although they may be sealed).

Why the disparity? It's hard to tell. Reporters write articles trying to fathom the inner thoughts of Craig Watkins (the Dallas County D.A.), who's not exactly media-friendly. My guess is his office's policies are somewhat a reflection of his evangelical Christian background (and fly in the face of right wingnuts who think that because Watkins is black and a Democrat that means, ipso facto, he's liberal).

[guest043013-2]

SJ,

I fully agree that the ramifications to a john are usually much worse than the lady.

I know that most ladies are not going to want to hear this, but many of the ladies plying this trade (especially streetwalkers), have already spent a night or two in a city or county run secured motel. They have already cut ties with much of their family, don't have a job that will fire them for an arrest, etc.

Sure, there are exceptions to this, but on the other hand, again in the DFW area, most of the enforcement activity is focused on streetwalkers and high visibility targets like AMPs, studios, strip clubs.

A nice quiet provider plying her trade without any ruckus is probably going to skate by safely and as a result, her clients will be under less risk of being busted.

I also would suggest that often times, the busts that occur, whether SWs, Strip Clubs, AMPS, or independents, is often focused at a two/three pronged 'clean up' of the streets of sex, drugs and forced prostitution.

[Waldo P. Emerson-Jones]

Originally Posted by eyefo

ONLY use well reviewed providers with a good deal of time in the business. ONLY use P411 as the "clearing house" for this activity. And among these providers use those who do little to no advertising outside of P411. Then stick with a handful of these providers and leave it at that.

I think you're fine with "only use well reviewed providers" (and I'm not talking about streetwalkers!). The rest is unnecessary as far as minimizing your LE risk, IMHO.

[Lily Blair]

Originally Posted by eyefo

ONLY use well reviewed providers with a good deal of time in the business. ONLY use P411 as the "clearing house" for this activity. And among these providers use those who do little to no advertising outside of P411. Then stick with a handful of these providers and leave it at that.

I know this isn't for everyone, but this works for me, using the same "good" few over and over within confines of P411 and leaving it at that.

How would those of you with hobby experience rate this "under the radar" approach in terms of "risk".

And do you have any idea of how to improve on it?

You sound like a smart guy You'd be amazed at how difficult these concepts are to some men. It really is just that simple. Avoiding arrest for both the ladies and the men isn't rocket science, yet some would have you to believe it's impossible.

[eyefo]

Lily

Thanks so much!

Its really nice hearing from one of you gals who really do the "heavy
lifting" running what is essentially a unique small service business with a number
of aspects.

Life, I have learned, is mostly about probabilities -- not possibilities.

If I started to enumerate all the negative outcome possibilities to even normal everyday
activities, I'd never get out of bed.

But the probability is that if you conduct your life in a sane and reasonable way, you'll be able to get out of bed each day and carry on without some horrible calamity befalling you.

And that's all I'm trying to get at here... learn from people who know the probabilites from experience and follow their lead, do research, etc.

Thanks again, Lily!

[jframe2]

Good morning all,
Saw this thread and thought I might contribute something.
Hope some of this helps.
J

How to Be A Successful Hobbiest
These are just Guidelines. Each person has to find his own level of security and procedures in this hobby!
Play safe, enjoy!

How to Use a Burnphone Wisely
- buy a burn phone with cash.
- do not register/create an account with any pay-as-you go phones.
- always pay cash for more minutes.
- only turn on the burn phone when needed.
- turn on your phone approx 1-2 hours before appt.
- turn off your phone approx 1-2 hours after appt.
- do not store anything in contacts.
- delete your call history often.

- keep battery separate from the phone during down time.
- if you find an ATF, set up a Safe word for texting/emailing. Find a simple word you will both remember.


Other Useful Things-
- at a hotel incall, always put the security bar on the door and check the bathroom before placing the donation
- be aware if the hotel room has an adjoining door to another room, think about your surroundings and why would a provider get adjoining rooms.
- if stopped by LE, never allow them to search your vehicle. Immediately after LE has verified your ID, ask to leave. If you are detained, ask for and attorney and then say nothing no matter how they act to you.
- only carry your ID and a small amount of folding money on your person to a date. Leave all else in your vehicle.

- create a separate email account for the hobby and do not use the same handle from any Hobby site for your hobby email. Never use your personal or work email for the hobby. Ever!
- handle as much of your communication by email using an on-line web-browser.
- be aware your ISP is required to keep logs of sites you visit. Use a anonymous connection. Search the web for them.
- be aware your computer keeps records of every website you visit.
- if you are signed into facebook or other social media sites they may Slurp your contacts out of your computer. Yes "Slurp" is the technical term.
- programs like ccleaner, or evidence eliminator are useful to cover your tracks from your pc.
- if you have a car GPS and use it to map to a provider, CLEAR its history as well.


Credit for this information go to all the successful Mongers who contribute to our boards.

[eyefo]

Thanks Jframe

Great tips

I learned something!

[midnite312004]

great tips my friend.

[nicemusic]

Good thread topic.

1. I agree that, in the end, the john would pay a greater price than a provider. But, I have known no johns to be caught. I have known few providers who have run into the police, mostly because some mad customer turned them in. Still, they didn't spend jail time, because they weren't stupid and didn't say or do something incriminating. In the end, who cares who has more at stake? Let's all stay safe.

2. I agree that the LE is much more likely to go towards the "big fish" and providers than Johns.

3. It seems obvious to not talk about exchanging sex for money, and experienced providers never do. Neither do I. We already know what's going on. Through sites like this, we often know a lot of what will happen and whether we'll have a good connection, in fact.

4. I have not used P411 or anything like that, mostly because I'm a cheap scape, but also because I haven't taken the time to figure out how to pay for for it without creating some sort of paper trail (that might be easy?). Some providers I've seen say it would simplify my life and recommend P411. eyefo seems to be overly cautious in this regard, but it's better than the reverse.

5. Certainly some venues and situations are more obviously risky than others. That is the attraction of SW to many people. (The other is cost, I think. It is rarely because they are healthier, brighter, happier, or better looking.) I'm not an expert nor have done a study, but I would put safety in this order: (a) a friend needing cash, (b) see a provider in a country where it is legal, (c) well-established indy provider, (d) AMP, (e) escort service, (f) SW.

6. In terms of location, I believe that outcall is safer than incall. They come to you, and you don't go to their setup. And, of course, pay cash for your hotel. And, even more obvious, don't invite some stranger in your residence, esp. if you are married. (Talk about risk in so many ways.)

7. Carry ons. Of course, just bring what you need to the appointment, with a little extra cash and "supplies". You don't need 5 credit cards when you're having an hour with your new beauty.

8. Telephone. I should take jframe's recommendations. I've been lazy and just haven't done it. He's right. Get your "hobby phone". I do want to know whether anyone knows what records TracFone keeps on your calls and text messages--could a court subpoena a text message from them? And, how long do they keep records of who you called or who called you? This is something I really do worry about.

8. Internet & computer. It's hard to avoid leaving evidence, but, agreed: (a) Use free email accounts and leave the email on the web, not your computer. (b) Try to use anonymous surfin' etc. (c) Don't keep records, pics, audio, video, etc. That said, I've never heard of cops subpoening a John's computer. And, if I were to keep pics, I'd put them in encryption. (Heck, you can encrypt the whole hard drive easily in Windows these days.) And, you can do http://eraser.heidi.ie/ to anything "sensitive" you delete, etc.

10. And, remember: girlfriends and wives are pretty smart and intuitive.

11. In terms of STDs, I find it interesting that I have never known a provider who has admitted to having had an STD. In fact, most directly state they never have had an STD and that they are careful: It's their life as well as their profession at stake. Very few have said they've seen guys with STDs. It's more the normal girl you meet in the bar, who seem less careful; and it is the non-providers who seem to have more STDs. Maybe you can correct me on that. I don't have statistics, but just what annecdotal evidence I've collected over the years.

12. Use protection and water-based lube for the act. Some also use it for dining at the "Y" too, I suppose. I don't know the risks of oral specifically, but I know it has risk. I also don't know anyone to have caught anything through giving or receiving: Although the local health department wants you to be in constant fear and gave me a ton of dental dams upon hearing about my activity. (The guy also told me to not do it with shaved women, because there are micro-abrasions in the skin that allow disease to go through... .) Oh, I do remember one posting on ASPD back in about 2004 from a newbie guy in Houston, who said he was quitting because he got herpes from a SW he paid $20 for BJ.

13. The front entrance is safer than the back entrance (anal).

14. Take a shower or at least wash afterwards. Gargle and spit. Clean up.

15. Notice the cleanliness and carefulness of the provider and her concern for yours too.

And, most of all, just use your intuition as well as your brain. That's why we have both.