why it takes so long to develop military jets?

[dilbert firestorm]

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/q...-military-jets

thought it was an interesting read.

personally, I think its the way the program management is handled and run and the over-use of cost plus contracts instead of fixed price contracts.

[garhkal]

Cause general A in charge, decides plane should be XYZ. Then 3 years down the road when he leaves and General B comes in, he decides HE must absolutely put his Tuppence into the design of the plane, so it has to be redesigned.. Then General C, D, E and so on all do the bloody same...

[gnadfly]

It's amazing the A bomb was developed so fast.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

It's amazing the A bomb was developed so fast.

Not really....profit becomes secondary when your very existence is threatened!

[Jackie S]

Originally Posted by WTF

Not really....profit becomes secondary when your very existence is threatened!

Look at the amazing weaponry that was developed in WW-2.

The F-6 Hellcat. The F-8 Bearcat. The B-29. Front line Air Craft Carriers. The Iowa Class Battlships. Landing Craft. Landing Ships. Etc.

Not to mention the mundane but very nessessary Liberty Ship, Victory Ship, and T2 Tanker.

Nesessity breeds innovation and excellence.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

Look at the amazing weaponry that was developed in WW-2.

The F-6 Hellcat. The F-8 Bearcat. The B-29. Front line Air Craft Carriers. The Iowa Class Battlships. Landing Craft. Landing Ships. Etc.

Not to mention the mundane but very nessessary Liberty Ship, Victory Ship, and T2 Tanker.

Nesessity breeds innovation and excellence.

You need the



Generals in wartime.

[Old-T]

There are many reasons, a few of the major ones:
--We buy so few major A/C systems that every big contract becomes a critical event for the few remaining builders. So there are automatic protests, and protests of the protests
--Typically the seniors--in uniform and civilian appointees--DON'T THINK. They want something fast, not the RIGHT thing fast. When someone finally realizes it is the wrong requirement, then the death spiral of changing requirements statrs
--And probably the biggest one: political budget pressure rewards low-bid lies. Even if it was a "fixed price" contract, the gov't unwillingness to take the time to properly think through the requirement guarantees that the GOV'T will blink first and make changes. And then the much more experienced (and higher paid) lawyers for the contractor essentially get the fixed price contract thrown out.

Politics, amature political appointres, and generals who think they want a shinier version of the toy they got last time.

Everyone with experience in the game k nows what has to be changed, but the lobyists and politicians won't go there. At least not in a way that will FIX it. Dems generally want to penny pinch and gag at realustic cost to produce something right the first time. Reps are far too focused on protecting large to huge corporate profits that result from amatures on the gov't side.

[garhkal]

And imo the BIGGEST reason.. UNIONS!

[Old-T]

How do unions stretch out the time and drivev up the overruns?

They increase the wage rate, but that is typically a smaller factor in the cost growth.

It sounds like unions might be your Freddie Kruger.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by Old-T

How do unions stretch out the time and drivev up the overruns?

They increase the wage rate, but that is typically a smaller factor in the cost growth.

It sounds like unions might be your Freddie Kruger.

unions play a minor role in the cost overuns concerning labor. this is more prevalent in the ship building industry than it is in the aircraft industry.

[TryWeakly]

Not true. Unions are everywhere... look what happened to Detroit... they unionized themselves right outta work.

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

unions play a minor role in the cost overuns concerning labor. this is more prevalent in the ship building industry than it is in the aircraft industry.

True

Originally Posted by TryWeakly

Not true. Unions are everywhere... look what happened to Detroit... they unionized themselves right outta work.

You clearly don't like unions. Personally I think they have good and bad to them. But for high tech, pushing the state of the art A/C, they are not what drives the cost overruns.

[garhkal]

Originally Posted by Old-T

Personally I think they have good and bad to them. But for high tech, pushing the state of the art A/C, they are not what drives the cost overruns.

They USED to do good.. These days all i see is bad..

[BigLouie]

Originally Posted by garhkal

And imo the BIGGEST reason.. UNIONS!

That is just a stupid statement. Here is an example, the F-35 was first proposed in 1997. It was 2006 before the first one flew. It was 2011 before the first one rolled off the assembly after testing and adjustments. So how does unions change any of that. It was 9 years from first proposed to the start of building the first one. Unions played no part in the specs as developed by the military which took years.

[Old-T]

You are basicly right, but the giv't writes requirements--the contractor develops the specs.

Tbe F-35 was (is) a political abomination. Service politics. Convressional politics. International politics.

What is being delivered has little resemblance to the first design ideas. They are on major upgrade #4, and figuring out what needs to be in #5.

Every principle of good requirements planning was ignored on the F-35.

In a different forum we could have lots of "fun" with that one.