Christianity and civilisation

[Whirlaway]

I think Xinping ignores the West's advancement due to the concept of "private property rights", an idea that never firmly took hold in the Far East.

With origination in ancient Greece, the West accelerted the advancement of civilization with the expansion of the concept of property rights...

[CuteOldGuy]

Let's see, we decimated the little brown guys (Native Americans) because God told us to expand west. (Manifest Destiny). We enslaved the black people from Africa, because we knew they didn't have a soul, and anyway, the Bible supported slavery. In the name of Christ, Cortez massacred the aboriginal peoples of Central and South America.

Funny thing is, Jesus wasn't a white guy either. But let's not blame the message (Jesus) on His messengers.

Christianity did some wonderful things, but it ain't all roses.

[essence]

The good thing about this kind of discussion is that we can never test our hypotheses. Does that make history bunk? No, we may not know, but we can have some good educated theories, and we can propbably say that a multitude of factors, including chance, play a role.

But does US (and the west) retain that dynamism, or does the US require continued immigration in order to re energise itself, or can an internal renewal keep it at the forefront of economics/politics/culture for the next millenium?

No, I don't have a clue either!

But I think we can all be sure that complacency and stasis and loss of self confidence is the guarantee of an erosion of influence.

I am not entirely deaf to the floundering about of current politics in the west and US. France, Germany, Italy, Greece? What a bunch of non entities they have as leaders. UK, that is a warning of the dangers of 'professional' politicians, gutless kids, just out of school. USA, on both sides, needs no comment from me.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Let's see, we decimated the little brown guys (Native Americans) because God told us to expand west. (Manifest Destiny).

'Manifest Destiny' was a political term that took on the mantle pseudo-scientific legitimacy (survival of the fittest) following Darwin's "Origin of Species".

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

We enslaved the black people from Africa, because we knew they didn't have a soul, and anyway, the Bible supported slavery.

"We"? Slavery in Africa predates Christianity - read your Bible.

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

In the name of Christ, Cortez massacred the aboriginal peoples of Central and South America.

Cortez's vast knowledge of international relations was founded on 800 years of conflict with Islam on the Iberian peninsula.

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Funny thing is, Jesus wasn't a white guy either. But let's not blame the message (Jesus) on His messengers.

Christianity did some wonderful things, but it ain't all roses.

Christianity is not the root of all evil as many suppose.

[CuteOldGuy]

I didn't say it was the root of all evil. It's just not as rosy as some have tried to make it. And I probably know the Bible much better than you.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

I didn't say it was the root of all evil. It's just not as rosy as some have tried to make it. And I probably know the Bible much better than you.

So, where in the Bible does it say that Christians created the institution of slavery?

[CuteOldGuy]

I didn't say it did. One of the reasons slavery was rationalized was that there is nothing in the Bible about freeing slaves, except a veiled reference in the book of Philemon.

No, the Bible did not create slavery. In fact, a more enlightened Wilbur Wilberforce and others like him took the essence of Jesus' teachings as a basis for the eradication of slavery. But if you look at just the bare words of the Bible, there is no teaching explicitly against the practice of slavery, so many "Christian" folk in the South used the Bible as a basis for maintaining their slaves.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

I didn't say it did. One of the reasons slavery was rationalized was that there is nothing in the Bible about freeing slaves, except a veiled reference in the book of Philemon.

No, the Bible did not create slavery. In fact, a more enlightened Wilbur Wilberforce and others like him took the essence of Jesus' teachings as a basis for the eradication of slavery. But if you look at just the bare words of the Bible, there is no teaching explicitly against the practice of slavery, so many "Christian" folk in the South used the Bible as a basis for maintaining their slaves.

And what 'book' are slave owners in Africa (Sudan, Chad, Ethiopia, etc.,) using to justify slavery today?

[CuteOldGuy]

You will have to ask them. They are not a part of this discussion.

[I B Hankering]

So there are other variables at play; thus, slavery cannot be defined by incidents of Christianity alone nor can Christianity be defined by incidents of slavery alone.

[CuteOldGuy]

I never said it could. You are making things up. It was one of many justifications. This thread was about Christianity, and that is all I addressed.

The Bible is a great book, but let's be honest. It was compiled by a committee committed to Constantine and the Roman Empire. Much was left out, because it didn't provide enough controls on the people to be of use to an Emperor. But a lot of good stuff slipped through, no doubt about that.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

I never said it could. You are making things up. It was one of many justifications. This thread was about Christianity, and that is all I addressed.

I am not making things up. You declaimed Christianity because southerners used Biblical text to rationalize slavery. You mention William Wilberforce, but you fail to mention he was an Evangelical Christian and that he, William Pitt and others were motivated by that same Bible to abolish the slave trade.

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

The Bible is a great book, but let's be honest. It was compiled by a committee committed to Constantine and the Roman Empire. Much was left out, because it didn't provide enough controls on the people to be of use to an Emperor. But a lot of good stuff slipped through, no doubt about that.

Men wrote the Bible. Men always make mistakes.

[CuteOldGuy]

I referred to Wilberforce as an enlightened Christian. If that wasn't clear, I apologize. Other than that, you were making up and/or distorting what I said. If anyone has any questions, they can review the posts. There is nothing at all wrong with Jesus, but his book and some of His followers leave a lot to be desired.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

I referred to Wilberforce as an enlightened Christian. If that wasn't clear, I apologize. Other than that, you were making up and/or distorting what I said. If anyone has any questions, they can review the posts. There is nothing at all wrong with Jesus, but his book and some of His followers leave a lot to be desired.

My point is there would have been slavery -- there is slavery -- with or without Christian involvement. Fact, were it not for the work of Christians like Wilberforce, slavery in the West would have endured longer than it did.

[CuteOldGuy]

Never mind.