Socialism

[WTF]

Aren't we all just trying to harvest a little pussy?

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by WTF

Aren't we all just trying to harvest a little pussy?

By damn WTF, you're not going to start a new page and steel my thunder. Not when when a Rockefeller Republican comes in here and starts bashing Libertarianism. Now if you or Eccieuser or blackman did it, I'd let it slide. But not some new guy:

Originally Posted by Tiny

The definition of socialism is a system where the government controls and owns the means of production. It currently only exists in a relatively pure form in Cuba and North Korea. Why? Because it doesn't work. It created great poverty and suffering, and was abandoned.

Yeah, you look at the Libertarian platform, and there are parts of it that aren't practical and don't make sense. But those parts will never be implemented. You're not going to see public schools or public roads put out of business. Libertarianism is about social freedoms, the right of individuals to engage in behavior that doesn't harm others, and yes, smaller, less intrusive government. But it's a big tent philosophy. I personally believe in universal health care backed up by government, along the lines of Singapore's system, which provides universal coverage at a much lower cost and with much better outcomes than what we have in the USA, and I've seen praise for their system (and admittedly criticism as well) in Reason, the flagship Libertarian magazine.

What happens when a Libertarian is elected to public office? Well, there's only been one elected to a high executive office, Gary Johnson, ex-Governor of New Mexico, and he did a pretty damn good job. He ran as a Republican in a blue state and still won by 10%, in two elections. He wasn't afraid to take the axe to pork.

Contrary to your belief, smaller government and lower taxes can result in greater prosperity for all. Kick out petro states and small places, and Switzerland, Singapore and the USA have among the lowest taxes and lowest government spending as % of GDP of developed countries, and also the highest median income. Please note that's median, not average.

I'm not saying the USA should adopt the platform of the Libertarian Party. Yeah, I agree that wouldn't be ideal. But neither is what we have now.

And, really, fuck ideology. What's the point in arguing about socialism or libertarianism? How we should define them, how well they'd work? It's a little like an argument between early 20th century Marxists and Anarchists. To a large extent, they were both full of shit. What we need to do is implement what works. And some of that comes from the Libertarian playbook. For example, no, we don't need to privatize the schools. But charter schools and tuition vouchers in private schools for underprivileged children, that makes sense.

Btw, your contention that Libertarians are wild eyed ideologues who harvest organs is over the top.

[dilbert firestorm]

the cow says moo!


Mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooo!!!

[nevergaveitathought]

my concern was what they might be teaching for black history month

and wouldn't you know it

at least in the washington dc school district they are using black lives matter communist curriculum with a focus on critical race theory

a house divided cannot stand or so said some guy

[oeb11]

Tiny and intldjgig:
Thank you both for a good discussion.

My take is that You are not far apart in your opinions.

[GastonGlock]

Originally Posted by intldjgig

LOL.

>Libertarians are among the most deluded individuals on the planet for their failure to distinguish between the hypothetically possible and the realistically probable.

I agree that there are some like that, but speaking for myself personally, I can compromise and try to get close to the mark. It's the classic example of "looks better on paper".

>And the only fans of small governments and “free” markets are those who benefit from such and those who would sell organs/children to obtain those benefits.

I personally think it'd be more beneficial for everyone, but people who rely on the government to do their thinking for them would have to adapt their thinking a bit.

Also, regarding the "selling organs & people" bit - I think the thing you're failing to accommodate for is that "free market" doesn't mean "anything goes". Consumer morality is what drives the market instead. Uncle Sam isn't preventing people from running slave markets, the people are. And if one tried to pop up, people would put it down immediately.

>In reality, any representative government with taxation powers contains some element of socialism.

Oh absolutely. I'm not an anarchist.

>Otherwise, all roads would be literal tollways.
All roads are tollways if your tax dollars pay for it.

>Pinkertons would be the primary mode of law enforcement.
That's fine, as long as the common man gets to keep his weapons. I'm actually very pro-vigilantism.

>Emergency rooms would check a patient’s ability to pay prior to admittance.
Some might. There are some people who get into medicine to help people, others for the tidy profit, most for a measure of both. What really skews it toward the profit side is the amount of administrators and other bureaucrats.

>Most of us have no problem with those who have more, as long as more is not acquired or maintained via the oppression of others.
But there's also a lot of people who are fine with setting up a "race to the bottom" because they hate anyone who is happier or more successful than them.

>So, no: I don’t have a problem with some elements of socialism. However, socialism (like any other means of power) requires constant scrutiny and diligence to ensure the fox in the hen house is a vegetarian.
I'm inclined to agree, however I think it's more prudent to arm the Chickens.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by oeb11

Tiny and intldjgig:
Thank you both for a good discussion.

My take is that You are not far apart in your opinions.

I think we're pretty far apart Oeb. Intldjgig is a fan of big government and crony capitalism. Or at least he said the only fans of small government and free markets are people who benefit from them. Oh yeah, and also people who sell organs and children.

I on the other hand believe free markets and smaller government benefit the majority of people. History has shown that to be correct.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

the cow says moo!


Mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooo!!!

Shut up Dilbert, we harvest cows too:

Originally Posted by Tiny

Btw, your contention that Libertarians are wild eyed ideologues who harvest organs is over the top.

[WTF]

So there's a son

And the son runs up to the dad and says “dad, I need help with this project on politics. I don't know anything about politics.”

So as a good dad he says “ok son I'll put it into perspective for you.

You see, I'm the bread winner, So we'll call me Capitalism. And your mother, she orchestrate the money so we'll call her The Government. And you, well we tend to your needs so we'll call you The People. The maid, she'll be The Working Class. And your baby brother, we'll just call him The Future.”

So he asks his son, so do you understand politics a now?

The son says “let me think about it”

So later that night the son was woken up by his baby brothers loud, screams.

So he goes to see what's wrong with his brother and turns out, his diaper is just soiled, it stinks really bad.

So he goes to his parents room. His mother is sleep but his dad is not there. So he goes to the maids room and his dad is in bed with the maid. So he doesn't say anything. He closed the door and went back to sleep.

But the next morning, he goes to his dad and says “I think I understand politics now.”

And the dad says " well what do you know about politics?"

So the so goes “ While Capitalism is screwing The Working Class, The Government is sound asleep. The People are being completely ignored. And The Future, well The Future is full of shit.”

Then the dad slaps the son and says "go to your room."

[sportfisherman]

I'm for ;

1.Healthcare for everyone (do away with the parasitic insurance companies)

2.Childcare by government centers

3.Education beyond high school ; college,trade schools,etc.

4.A national federal level law enforcement oversight with outlawed chokeholds and automatic review of death,injury,and excessive force cases.

That should do it.

We should try a little socialism for poor people.

Instead of the Rich People Socialism we have now.

[GastonGlock]

Originally Posted by sportfisherman

I'm for

> 1.Healthcare for everyone (do away with the parasitic insurance companies)
Agreed with Insurance Companies needing to be done away with. But I don't trust the government to run healthcare.

> 2.Childcare by government centers
Hard pass. Sounds like a shortcut to indoctrination and your child being turned into a narc against you.

> 3.Education beyond high school ; college,trade schools,etc.
Pass here too. I'm pro-education, but the problem is the majority of jobs don't require specialty education that colleges pretend to provide.

> 4.A national federal level law enforcement oversight with outlawed chokeholds and automatic review of death,injury,and excessive force cases.
No to federal level. State level maybe. Whole thing would be better managed if the police unions didn't exist, and cases were taken to court treating the offending officer as a normal person and not a special class of citizen. Police officers shouldn't be allowed to act in any way that you or I cannot act.

> We should try a little socialism for poor people.
They get plenty, some too much.

> Instead of the Rich People Socialism we have now.
Agreed 5000%. Flat 18% tax, no deductions.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by sportfisherman

I'm for ;

1.Healthcare for everyone (do away with the parasitic insurance companies)

2.Childcare by government centers

3.Education beyond high school ; college,trade schools,etc.

4.A national federal level law enforcement oversight with outlawed chokeholds and automatic review of death,injury,and excessive force cases.

That should do it.

We should try a little socialism for poor people.

Instead of the Rich People Socialism we have now.

Poor People are steeped in Socialism. What do you think Food Stamps, Welfare and Public Defenders are all about?

[oeb11]

Originally Posted by Tiny

I think we're pretty far apart Oeb. Intldjgig is a fan of big government and crony capitalism. Or at least he said the only fans of small government and free markets are people who benefit from them. Oh yeah, and also people who sell organs and children.

I on the other hand believe free markets and smaller government benefit the majority of people. History has shown that to be correct.

Thank you - good sir.

I will re-read and reconsider my comments.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by Tiny

And, really, fuck ideology. What's the point in arguing about socialism or libertarianism? How we should define them, how well they'd work? .

Which is exactly why I tried to reduce the definition of Socialism to more government compared to less government. You want more, bigger government programs, you are NOW, like it or not, labeled a Socialist.


One can disagree all they want but sometimes, perception is reality.

[intldjgig]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Btw, your contention that Libertarians are wild eyed ideologues who harvest organs is over the top.

That would be over the top had I said that. But that’s not what I said. Look closer (with emphasis and outline added to clarify my point):

“And the only fans of small governments and “free” markets are (a) those who benefit from (small governments and “free” markets; in other words, those who benefit from low public contribution to society and minimal oversight regarding their actual or potential activities), and (b) those who would sell (their own) organs/children to obtain those benefits (that is, the benefits of low public contribution to society and minimal oversight yadda yadda).”

It’s not the Libertarians harvesting organs and selling babies; it’s the huddled masses who aspire to be well off enough to hold Libertarian views as a matter of self-interest. Apologies if that point was too subtle.